Greg Rucka talks sense* on the Superman/Wonder Woman pairing:
How I feel about the decisions Geoff and Jim have made on the book are entirely irrelevant and immaterial. What they have done is to decisively break with the past, and to run headlong into the “new.” Speaking as a writer, they’ve not only opened a can of worms, but they’ve also opened a vast arena of new stories to tell. Some of those stories may well be worth telling. Some of those stories may well be worth repeating, and even cherishing. And, yes, some of those stories may end up best forgotten. And some may argue they’re stories that never needed telling in the first place.
But to condemn DC, and Geoff Johns, and Jim Lee, for doing – at least with regards to Superman, Wonder Woman, and Lois – exactly what the branding of NEW demands seems to me counterproductive. DC is, at least in this instance, walking their talk.
The entire blog post is well worth reading, especially Rucka’s suggestion for what to do if you don’t like the current direction of DC’s titles. It’s good advice, and should be remembered for everything that you’re buying and not enjoying.
(* I tend to agree with Rucka so much that I’m tempted to just start a regular thing called “Greg Rucka Talks Sense” which I just randomly quote him about various topics. That wouldn’t be weird, right…?)
August 30th, 2012 at 8:43 am
I agree with Rucka. It makes the new52 era feel genuinely different, which it never really has.
It’s like when Ultimate Peter Parker and Kitty Pryde got together. Until that point, it was “Here’s Ultimate _______, he’s slightly more modern,” but basically the same stories. When those two got together, there was a real paradigm shift. People stopped waiting for some inevitable MJ-Peter reunion, and some new Spiderman stories really could be told for the first time in years.
New52 has mostly been pre-Kitty Spidey up to this point. Reintroducing old characters that are slightly different, but similar enough to not be exciting. Everyone was expecting Lois and Clark to get together again. But maybe, just maybe, characters will be able to go new places instead of feeling like they are all leading towards some stodgy old status quo.
August 30th, 2012 at 9:23 am
So some people truly believe this is anything more than a short term deal? I’m willing to see what story areas it opens (WW and Superman have a row, she slices him open) but don’t expect it to last any longer than, say, electric Supes, or Artemis as Wonder Woman.
August 30th, 2012 at 10:36 am
I told a friend that if Supes and WW were still together in six months, I would eat JL 12 and make a video of myself doing it. But I still thought the first kiss was believable and that between JL 12 and JLI’s end, we are on the cusp of seeing some really big things that are not More of the Same.
Now if only we could find a way to get Rucka to work on something for DC again, since I still maintain he wrote the best Diana of the past twenty years. I know he’s off pursuing Stumptown and his webcomic, but I miss him at DC.
August 30th, 2012 at 4:05 pm
Then you read further and Rucka says he detests it.
August 30th, 2012 at 9:04 pm
@hhbx And you realize, as he said right off the bat, his opinion is irrelevant to what he’s talking about.
August 31st, 2012 at 7:55 am
Johns JLA is plain bad.
August 31st, 2012 at 8:27 am
I don’t think the people at DC understand that the major reason to dislike it is that it made no sense. There was no build up at all. They barely interacted in JL and they don’t appear in each others titles…it’s just too transparent, it isn’t new, it’s boring and instantly played out when done simply so news outlets will write about it…
August 31st, 2012 at 8:41 am
I am not a DC reader but I must ask why all the furor about Clark and Diana being together. To me it makes sense. Her Amazon tradition would compel her to kill her beau after copulation. Clark is probably the one man she cannot kill thus making for a long term relationship. I hope they find the happiness which eludes so many.
August 31st, 2012 at 8:59 am
Been readng comics for over 30 years. I persoanlly don’t care about “the kiss” as it just seems intended to get the ball rolling for upcoming storylines. That’s fine as I’m sure that the relationship will sooner than later end. I am more concerned with the New DC as a whole. DC needed a shake-up to bring in new reader and this did the trick. However looking at the stories for the past year I feel that they have forsaken many readers to try to bring in some new ones. There are many inconsistencies, unanswered questions, and an overall sense that they were making things up as they went. This caused changes that hurt the flow of the stories and the line as a whole. Wiping out characters (Wally West) was a slap in the face to many. There have been some great moments over the past year but as Greg said on his blog, I have dropped almost all of my DC books except a select few.
August 31st, 2012 at 9:08 am
Hookups don’t need a build up. They can just happen, and that does happen in the real world. And the fact people are talking about realism when the two people involved are an alien and a warrior goddess is boggling to me. How is a man from an alien planet realistic in itself? If a book stops holding my interest I stop purchasing it. The New 52 is called New for a reason. For the same old they could have just called it the Slighty Shiny but Heavily Recycled 52. Comics are an escape from reality. But if people do want realism then look at the plethora of online dating sites and random hookups that happen in the real world. Not every relationship in the real world has a long build up, sometimes they just happen. Comic book fandom sometimes makes me shake my head in astonishment and I have been collecting for 26 years.
August 31st, 2012 at 9:33 am
One word can be described to the DC approach to their properties: Unstable. Reverse Flash can make one change to the past with minimal consequences but when Barry Allen undoes that one change to restore things, we get the fubar Flashpoint Universe. The Flash then fixes his fix and we get the new 52. Her ewe are one year into it and Booster Gold is already wiped from existence (although Bart Allen and the Legion of Super Heroes aren’t?) and the new new timeline isn’t what it’s supposed to be yet again? GET A NEW TRICK, DC!
Meanwhile, in the universe we know as ours, creators tell us one thing and the books tell us another. “Hawkman picks up right where Brightest Day leaves off.” It absolutely does not. “Batman’s continuity is pretty much unchanged.” Except for Batman Year One no longer fitting any kind of timeline, everyone was a Robin for about 5 minutes, he’s never met the Huntress (who was never a part of the Birds of Prey), we have no idea if his Outsiders ever existed (if so, Freight Train survived the reboot, Owlman didn’t and was Metamorpho ever a JLAer?), his OMAC creation didn’t kill Ted Kord yadda yadda yadda. “Superman was the first Superhero.” Except for all of the characters discussed in The Shade mini-series, Batman, Green Lantern, Stormwatch and others that pop up almost every month. “We won’t just re-tell old stories.” I’m not even going to touch that obvious lie. I never trust a word out of any mouth at DC because odds are it will be contradicted within a month. Hell, even books contradict other books. We saw the Flash in the Batcave handing Batman a note from his Flashpoint father Thomas Batman Wayne and yet in his own book, Barry Allen has no experience with time travel or dimension hopping? Would Superboy Prime please punch a wall and make this all go away?
August 31st, 2012 at 9:38 am
I stopped buying JL after issue 6. I picked this up to see what all the fuss was about.
First, I was suprised that there was not a ‘catch up’ page before the beginning of the story to ‘fill in’ readers, especially considering the new readers who would be buying the book for ‘the kiss’ and possibly for the first time. Personally, I have come to like those pages and think they serve new readers well.
Secondly, I was taken out of the comic when they were talking about the ‘kind of team’ they needed to be and it almost sounded like a complete rip-off of Nick Fury’s line in the Avengers movie. I could be wrong, but I almost read the captions as Nick Fury was saying it. Maybe that is just me though.
The rest of the story and art I thought was “ok”. As for “the kiss”, I think it is completely believable. They just went through something relatively traumatic. They have commonalities and can understand each other. How many relationships have started in the aftermath of something stressful/traumatic, especially if two people have mutual respect and similarities? There did not have to be a big build up. Sometimes stuff happens. I thought ‘the kiss’ and reasosn for it, was handled fine.
Long story short, it was not enough to entice me back to being a regular reader of Justice League. The only DC book I still have is Batman – I think I enjoy that b/c I was not a big Batman fan before and I don’t get all crazy about the continuity timelines (Robins) – Which I am surprised DC did not do a better job of cleaning up though prior to the New 52.
But I digress…
August 31st, 2012 at 9:39 am
I don’t have a problem with the pairing as a storyline. The post-CRISIS/post-LEGENDS Byrne reboot toyed with the same thing. And maybe this time there can actually be decent stories mined from it.
My problems with the New 52 are way past a SuperWonder hookup. Superman is almost unrecognizable, physically and in his character. There’s a broken sense of continuity — what happened, what didn’t? Design-wise, so many characters look sillier, frankly, than before the reboot. Favorite characters are gone or a shell of who they were before the reboot.
There are probably several reasons for all this, some already known and some probably still unspoken. But DC is slowly driving this lifelong reader away. I’ve already dropped all the Super-books for the first time since CRISIS, and my DC pull list is almost half of what it was (on the other hand, it’s pushing me to try other companies, including more Marvel, and I like them).
The New 52, more and more, just isn’t the DC I want to read. More power to the people who do want to read it, though.
August 31st, 2012 at 9:40 am
Yes there are a lot of problems but the Flashpoint scene turning4k is a great one as it was in a book that lead into the Nu52 relaunch. well spotted.
August 31st, 2012 at 9:41 am
Hmm…. Maybe Mr. Rucka is looking to get back on some DC properties….
August 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am
Well i love that wonder woman and superman are together, the lois lane thing was boring and did not open opportunites to push superman forward, it would have worked if dc followed grant moriison’s dc 1 million future but they dumped that! But as awhole the new 52 is crap especially superman, an invulnerable being wearing armour and with no history or respect in the dc universe, get beaten up every issue and for good measure we will show blood flyng from superman! I mean tell me any great defining moments for superman, supergirl is more powerful and has more powers, was someone that darkseid feared to a bum boy, beaten by hellspont and being refered to the most being on earth when he used to be one of the most powerful beings in the universe! He is going to get spanked soon by shazam, seems he gets knocked out alot. Superman used to be the go to guy when all was lost like doomsday, not whining that helspont is so much more powerful than him and he does not know what to do! This whole revamp was because dc is losing the rights to superman and they want to push other charcters to the front and destroy superman! this scott lobdell with his annual just lost me, was absolute crap!. i might read jl just to see superman and the wonder women relationship and i hope it lasts but dc wil revert soon to stupid lois lane! I am also tired of them publishing stupid smallville even after the tv show ended, so other than the wonder woman superman relationship i am almost out, it seems marvel has gone more cosmic and interesting while dc has started to limit certain characters like superman and destroying the character! i blame geoff johns and dan didio, they should have never allowed then to take charge! Dreading seeing captain marvel beat up new 52 superman so that another charcter can be pushed forward!
August 31st, 2012 at 9:44 am
PUT MORRISON AND RUCKA ON EVERY DC BOOK
August 31st, 2012 at 9:46 am
Dc used to be cosmic and full of fantasy as comics should be, now marvel is the go to company and dc the realistic crap, the realistic aproachable has really destroyed a great character like superman!
August 31st, 2012 at 10:09 am
@Sueven I agree, that’s why DC just puts Action Comics in the corner and ignores it
August 31st, 2012 at 10:16 am
The Comic sold out. That is what speaks. Not sour fans who go around blogs trolling Jim, Geoff and Dan Didio.Really , get a grip folks. And if you had to be told not to buy the books they more stupid than I thought they were. It is common sense. many of these fans don’t buy comics though. If they had we might not have had a reboot.
August 31st, 2012 at 10:35 am
The biggest problem with the New 52 isn’t that it never felt new. It was so many key franchises that were genuinely awful before Flashpoint seemed to get worse with the reboot, while dragging down popular characters like Wally West, Spoiler and now Tim Drake, whose own history is being RE-rebooted a year after being rebooted the first time.
No one can truly claim that Justice League, Superman, Teen Titans or Green Arrow — four of the biggest franchises at DC, all of which have TV or movies out or coming soon (Young Justice is a defacto Titans & JLA show)– have been improved by the reboot. Four truly awful titles pre-Flashpoint have gotten worse, and now they don’t even have an sense of history or a base point upon which the characters themselves might be returned to.
Instead we are being given reboots by the very writers and the editor in chief who were behind the bankruptcy of 90s Marvel Comics. Writers called upon back then because Marvel had chased away much of it’s house writing talent to appease the likes of Jim Lee and Rob Liefeld, only to see those artists all leave and form Image. (Books not exactly ever known for stellar writing talents back then.)
The New 52 has had it’s share of successes. Mostly the 90s pre-Vertigo books in the DC Dark line and Wonder Woman. (Which probably SHOULD be part of DC Dark.) Those could have happened without destroying their history of their biggest franchises.
August 31st, 2012 at 10:59 am
It’s comics. Not religion. Enough with the preaching already. Superman fans can be divided into three. One wants lois in every Superman story no matter what , even when she should be dead…the other just wants good stories and have no problem with him with Wonder Woman or Lana etc….and some fall in between. Greg Rucka needs to be careful who he is indulging as well. These type of fans, if they are carrying on like this, are the type who would turn on him when he wants to do something different. His Wonder Woman run was full of controversy too. Creators need to stand up for the rights of other creators right not to be contained. He’s doing that,..good for him. But too much trying to soothe sulking fans is pointless.Why don’t we have articles of fans who are enjoying stuff than fans bitching because clearly there more of them are judging by how well the comic market is at the moment.
August 31st, 2012 at 1:29 pm
I think I see what Greg is arguing. I even agree in a way, that a DC reboot is a good idea in theory. Though I think there’s a flaw in this logic of new DC is embracing. The trouble is.. DC’s power isn’t in the New. It’s in the old.. the nostalgic.. the traditional. If comic readers want new, that’s the territory of Image or Dark Horse or Oni or any other publisher. Even Marvel is more about new than DC.. even if only about a thirty year head start on nostalgia.
These are not brand names. They’re characters. With power that comes from a rich history of stories. To totally toss that aside for some quick newness? I think you’re giving away your power base for a quick hit of juice. And, yeah, how long will that newness last anyway?
And I also question if things are actually new enough even for that. It’s not a total reboot. It’s a soft reboot. We still have Damien Wayne as part of four Robins from before running around. (None of the other Batgirls funny enough. No girls allowed in the cave.) Green Lantern was advertized as not being rebooted. And that’s rather a problem. It’s not really a new administration overseeing it all. It’s still the same old crew as when Greg and others were trying to make decent Wonder Woman or Batwoman books in spite of stupid stupid decisions from editorial. This is still the same company that gave us crap like Amazons Attack while kicking aside a New York Times bestselling author like Jodi Piccolt and all the readers she could bring just to maintain their good old boys club of silly crossover events with all the intellect of a ten year old boys smashing action figures together and thinking girls will give them cooties.
And I think this is in the reboot too. It’s not really new. It reeks of bad 90s comics and gimmicks. Not to be confused with the good comics and DC Comics of the 90s. Wasn’t DC’s Kingdom Come in the 90s a critique of the flashy Image books and their use of the dark anti hero and how that shouldn’t be applied to heroes like DC has? Isn’t that exactly what’s going on? And speaking of Kingdom Come, Superman and Wonder Woman as a couple? Is that really all that new of a concept? I like the comment critics have that Alan Moore wrote it off ages ago in For the Man Who Has Everything, “Too predicable.”
So.. is this DC reboot -really- new? Or more of the same garbage that has been holding DC Comics back for the past decade? Just in a shiny superficial coat of paint. The appearance of new. It’s the same old bad repackaging of the old as pseudo-new. Now with mere brand names and none of the actual characters people loved, the very thing people kept going back to DC Comics for.
August 31st, 2012 at 1:29 pm
If you like it, keep reading. If you don’t like it, stop reading. The numbers will tell in due time. What I will say, and I’m sure MOST of you will agree, is that a good story is a good story. Sure, I agree, my line of thinking is Lois & Clark belong together, but at the same time – I’m excited to NOT know what is coming next. Bring it on!
August 31st, 2012 at 1:55 pm
I said it a year ago and I’m saying it now. the biggest problem with the ‘New’ 52 is that it is is not new! I was never in favour of the ‘reboot’ but once DC decided they needed to ‘reboot’ they had to go all or nothing! In for a penny, in for a pound! Once they decided on this soft/half reboot nothing made sense. they have taken 60 years or complex /evolved stories and characters and put them all in a pot, shaken them up and hope that the results can be great! How could they be. What they actually have here is George’s Marvellous Medicine! Crazy results where some characters grow huge and others shrink into ‘Atom’ size. For the reader though the results are just bewildering What happened ? Whatd did’nt? The tragedy is, who cares?
August 31st, 2012 at 1:59 pm
>>Instead we are being given reboots by the very writers and the editor in chief who were behind the bankruptcy of 90s Marvel Comics. <<
Oh, the $330 million dollars Perlman took from Marvel's profits while he leveraged debt against the company for the purchase of Fleer and Toy Biz and everything else he was doing with Marvel's profits had nothing to do with the bankruptcy?
Your premise is Marvel went bankrupt because Bob was editor in chief, Scott and I were selling more monthly copies of the X-books than had ever sold before (and that is numerical reality and not in ANY way a qualitative statement, since we couldn't hold a candle to the best of Chris, John, JR and Paul Smith)?
Is that your theory? Feel free to back it with facts.
August 31st, 2012 at 2:06 pm
And if you read further on Rucka’s blog he talks about the ClarkXDiana hook-up leaving him feeling empty and that he hates the New 52 for multiple reasons.
August 31st, 2012 at 2:24 pm
I will say this for the New 52. I don’t want Lois and Clark back together yet. I would like it to happen, but took them how many years after Crisis to finally make it official, then longer still for them to finally get married. The romance with Wonder Woman makes sense at the moment, and at this point in their stories. If this is actually going to last, then lets have some new stuff before we go back to the mythos.
August 31st, 2012 at 4:08 pm
As an old-timer who’s always loved comix, especially DC, I’ve stopped reading new books since the advent of DCNU. I picked up the 1st Action & Batman. Snyder & Capullo are the ONLY book worth following. I looked at JL and Superman but didn’t/don’t think they’re worth the effort. Now I just read comix from the library or sit and read a few at B&N, but I don’t BUY comix anymore. I feel like I’m missing tidbits here and there but overall, DC AND Marvel have lost their way. I don’t see comic books even existing 10-20 yrs from now. Hope I’m wrong but….
August 31st, 2012 at 6:04 pm
Golden / Silver Age Superman: unrequited love / chaste triangle
Post-Crisis Superman: marriage
DC-52 Superman: casual hookup
Golden / Silver Age Batman: no serious relationships
Post-Crisis Batman: James Bond
DC-52 Batman: Catwoman is his f-buddy
Golden / Silver Age Wonder Woman: unconsummated secret love / subtext galore
Post-Crisis Wonder Woman: Dates some Jewish guy, breaks up
DC-52 Wonder Woman: casual hookup
Maybe this just reflects changing courtship behavior (and publishing taboos) in American society?
September 1st, 2012 at 12:03 am
Lots of negativity from fans as usual, so I’ll just go on record in saying that I much prefer the New 52 to what came before. If continuity is your biggest pleasure from comics, then I can see why you have problems with the reboot, but if you just like comics for the stories and new and interesting connections between characters that weren’t possible before — not to mention not being able to predict where everything is going a year before it happens — then the new 52 is for you.
September 1st, 2012 at 6:49 am
@Simon DelMonte- Remember to take out the staples.
September 1st, 2012 at 6:59 am
The way I see it, Lois and Clark were like Jennifer Aniston and Brad Pitt, and Wonder Woman and Superman are like Angelina Jolie and Brad Pitt. Each made/makes sense for the time. Now let’s just hope Diana doesn’t turn into a skeleton.
September 1st, 2012 at 11:22 am
Except this Superman/Wonder Woman thing has already happened many times before in the old DCU and there is nothing “new” about it! Glad to see that most DCnU titles now sell less than 2010 or even 2011 before the reboot. You deserve the upconing disaster DC!
September 1st, 2012 at 11:25 am
I agree with Rucka, the whole point of the NEW DCU is to tell new stories, redefine characters, etc. The problem most people have with this reboot is that it hasn’t been done very well: there are thing that don’t make sense (Batman’s entire universe for one, if the Batman was new five years ago, when was Damien concieved?) there are other things that haven’t been done very well (the Teen Titans/Superboy crossovers and overlap seem to be trying to force people to read both books if they want either to make sense half the time) and then there’s the fact that a lot of the titles don’t feel particularly new. it’s the same old established writers doing their same old established thing. Which is fine, but when you reboot an entire universe, maybe it’d be a good idea to bring in some new blood to provide new perspectives and ideas instead of taking away Superman’s pants and adding more lines to most of the costumes. Oh, also make sure that an issue that costs 4 dollars is worth 4 dollars, I.E something actually happens in it. I’m looking at you Justice League issues 2-5.
September 1st, 2012 at 11:56 am
If the idea was to create something all new then they should have done so across the board instead of this mash-up of surviving continuities, re-boots, changed-up origins, etc. It’s all pretty joyless–an unhappy universe. Oh, it’s so bold & daring to throw out the old history of an established character isn’t it and make him unrecognizable to his longtime fans. It’s more arrogance than boldness. How about just creating new characters with the same names as was done in the Silver Age. Then the “new” universe would be more cohesive and truly new.
September 1st, 2012 at 1:36 pm
If they ever put The Crime Syndicate (Evil alternate version of the Justice Leauge) in their own comic that’ll be the only comic I’m reading.
September 1st, 2012 at 4:54 pm
*sighs* It’s just feel the same without the real DCU.
Damnit, I miss it all
September 1st, 2012 at 6:29 pm
I may not be reading all the DC books, I wish I could afford to, anyways, I don’t even think twice about what happens in those new monthly issues, I just enjoy the ride…from what I read in Action Comics to Superman to Justice League etc. etc. I’m not one bit confused or questioning anything. Why should I? 70 years of history erased. Do we really realize how this can all be cleared up in another 70 years…as if it would really drag out for 70 years…hmmm…nah…in a few years we may not get all the answers but I hope DC continues with the New 52 path.
September 1st, 2012 at 9:29 pm
Really ? it feels like every reboot dc did to the universe every 5 or so years so far .
And as usual there are things to enjoy despite that from it , but people that enjoy the reboot should not mind other voicing their concerns .
Why do they even care if they are already happy ? You’ve won guys ! The negative minority IS a sales minority , as even disgruntled fans will keep bying hoping to see a change back or toward something else .
At the very least you better not dare complain at your turn , when your neat “new 52″ inevitably get rebooted . It’s a question of when .
September 2nd, 2012 at 12:31 pm
Wasn’t Rucka the guy hell bent on trying to hook up Wonder Woman with Batman cause he thinks she likes badboys? Remember the much mocked Blackest Night Wonder Woman where Diana was inferred to be pining for the Bat when nothing like that was going on the other comics? Gail Simone was doing something totally different with Diana and Tom and Bats was busy confessing love for Selina. Was that not going to undermine Wonder Woman? DC got wind of what he was going to do and stopped him in his tracks. I think we have double bind messages here to be honest.Rucka has his bias too.I find it a little over dramatic he is trying say he is so “empty” over this.
September 3rd, 2012 at 9:52 am
Everyone keeps saying that any fan who is upset “should put their money where their mouth is” and to “vote with their wallet.”
So guess what? DC has finally pushed this long-term Superman fan away. I am tired of reading these comics and cringing every other page. DC may still be happy to ride the Didio-Lee-Johns bus of ruin for Superman but I wll be getting off here.
I told my local shop to cancel all of my Superman pulls and to drop JL. Considering how much I spend on those titles, I now have $300 per year more to spend on books I might enjoy.
Voting with my wallet – hope you’re happy DC Editorial!!
On another note, I think it’s kind of crappy that major character developments have to happen within the JL title instead of being handled by the writers of the individual books. I thought that it was always supposed to be the other way around at DC. If a change happened in the solo title, then it had to be reflected in the group title. I’m just saying….
September 3rd, 2012 at 5:33 pm
The new are books are great Aquaman & Nightwing are good but all the new titles that came out are incredible. Frankenstein,Grifter, Worlds’Finest, Earth 2 and Stormwatch are my favorites and I’m looking forward to reading Team 7 & Phantom Stranger.
But a special thanks to Teen Titans,if not for your book I wouldn’t be reading Spideman & Youngblood
September 10th, 2012 at 10:38 pm
(* I tend to agree with Rucka so much that I’m tempted to just start a regular thing called “Greg Rucka Talks Sense” which I just randomly quote him about various topics. That wouldn’t be weird, right…?)