Thinking about Avengers vs. X-Men the other day, I found myself stuck on the fact that the Fantastic Four wouldn’t be taking part in the event. On the one hand, this makes a lot of sense, because (a) adding another super team to the event seems ridiculous given the number of characters already involved given the size of the Avengers and X-Men franchises these days, and (b) it’s called Avengers vs. X-Men, not Avengers And Their Friends vs. X-Men And Their Friends. But on the other hand, “limiting” the event to these two teams feels artificial given the way that the Marvel Universe has always historically worked, with books crossing over and guest stars appearing when you least expect it, and especially so when you consider that the Thing is an Avenger now, or that it’s very likely that Reed Richards would have something to say about the Phoenix Force coming to Earth (Wouldn’t Nova go to the FF before he’d go to the Avengers or the X-Men, considering past adventures, after all…?).
The real reason there’s no Fantastic Four in the title of Avengers Vs. X-Men, of course, is that the F4 isn’t one of Marvel’s core franchises, and so hasn’t earned its way onto that banner. A harsh truth, perhaps, but a truth nonetheless; whereas the Avengers books (top-sellers for Marvel since Disassembled) have led the linewide events since 2006, and the X-Books have been so numerous that they’ve had their own family to have linewide events of suitable size and success for even longer, the Fantastic Four has always seemed to be on the periphery of storylines that affected the direction of the Marvel Universe: They had tie-in issues to Civil War, but Reed’s involvement in the Negative Zone prison aside, they were pretty much removed from the main action; they pretty much skipped World War Hulk in all but cameo appearances, and had a minor Secret Invasion tie-in mini to show for their troubles, with even less involvement in Fear Itself (the Thing aside, but as I’ve already pointed out, he’s an Avenger now).
Maybe it’s me being old-fashioned and sentimental, but this seems sad, considering the importance of the Fantastic Four to the Marvel Universe both internally and externally; this was the book that started it all, after all, and even within the fictional universe, this is the team that saved the world from Galactus, the ones who discovered the Negative Zone (and Unstable Molecules, which have saved many a Marvel hero from unfortunate accidental nudity at times) and the Microverse, the greatest scientific adventurers around, and so on… These characters should be at the center of every big Marvel event, surely.
And all of this got me to thinking: What’s wrong with the Fantastic Four? Historically, it’s not been a massive seller since… what, John Byrne’s era (although it seems to be holding its own quite well right now, thanks to Jonathan Hickman’s efforts)… but why? Is there something inherently less interesting to readers about the Fantastic Four than there is the Avengers or the X-Men, and if so, what?
Certainly, as a long-running series, it’s arguably the longest-running Marvel title with the least amount of creative peaks (Lee/Kirby, obviously, but then it’s a fallow period until Byrne, and then relatively dull until Walter Simonson’s short-but-still-underrated run, and afterwards a number of well-meaning-but-again-dull efforts until Mark Waid and Mike Wieringo, and then… Hickman? Have I missed anyone truly exceptional out in there? Over 50+ years, that feels low, especially compared to the X-Books or Avengers… Am I misremembering?), so is that the problem: That getting the F4 “right” is just harder than it is for other books, and the failed attempts put people off…? Or is it just that the core appeal of the Fantastic Four – A family who love each other who have dedicated their lives to discovering the unknown – doesn’t have the same appeal as existing in a world in which you’re feared and hated, or being the Earth’s Mightiest Heroes?
I have no answers; I’m not even sure if I’m asking the right questions. But there’s something about the Fantastic Four that, in my mind, makes them the core of the entire Marvel Universe, and seeing them treated as something out on the outliers because the market doesn’t seem to want that much more from them, seems like a far, far sadder fate than they deserve.
January 27th, 2012 at 9:40 am
Your premise is pretty off… the FF were central in Civil War and the way the family was torn apart was core to the storyline… Reed Richards was core to Secret Invasion and WW Hulk…didn’t read Fear Itself but the Thing’s involvement involved the FF and didn’t Franklin save him?
Add all that and Hickman’s run selling well these days and…what the heck are you talking about?
January 27th, 2012 at 10:16 am
I wondered the same.
Might perhaps be that the FF only had one book up to now, compared to the multitude of Avengers and X-Men books.
But they are definitely part of the core MU, at least IN the MU!
January 27th, 2012 at 10:19 am
Funny how we remember stories we’ve read. I remember the FF being integral to Civil War (Reed’s 80 solutions thing… the split of the FF due to different viewpoints of Civil War, Sue left Reed! The Thing went to France!).
Mr. Fantastic was part of the Illuminati that Hulk captured. Didn’t Reed also create whatever gizmo that revealed the Skrulls – and get kidnapped (I remember him being super-stretched by a torture device).
FF and uh..FF are both huge comics right now. They don’t need to be involved (and we all know Reed will show up with some sort of explanation of stuff the heroes want to know).
As usual Graeme – you don’t really think things out all that much before you blog eh?
January 27th, 2012 at 10:29 am
The greatest challenge the Fantastic Four has is there are only four (essentially) non-changing members at its core.
While Spider-Man, Wolverine, The Beast, Scarlet Witch and others can float, switch and be traded from The Avengers to the X-Men, or even come and go as they please, the Fantastic Four remain constant. If a writer doesn’t like Reed Richards or Ben Grimm, the book is going to suffer, but if a writer doesn’t like Cyclops, Storm, The Wasp or Captain America — well, they can always have the character exit the book.
Also the fact that Marvel doesn’t own the movie rights to the Fantastic Four probably makes them less of a priority in the corporation than the various Avengers characters. (But having said that, Marvel/Disney doesn’t have the movie rights to The X-Men and they are getting a push in this series, so perhaps that’s not the strongest of arguments.)
January 27th, 2012 at 11:06 am
they still publish the FF?
January 27th, 2012 at 11:34 am
Their movie tanked. Twice. The reboot is taking forever and thus, no need to promote their IP.
January 27th, 2012 at 1:55 pm
Fantastic Four is one of the few Marvel titles I still read – specifically because it tends to not get as wrapped up in the Marvel “events” as titles Avengers.
January 27th, 2012 at 2:06 pm
I only buy three Marvel books a month, and Fantastic Four and FF account for two of them. I don’t think anything’s wrong with the book at all. Maybe Hickman’s writing isn’t all about slugfests, so people aren’t as interested?
January 27th, 2012 at 2:43 pm
The answer to the question is: Nothing. Nothing’s wrong with the Fantastic Four.
To me, the fact that the characters usually go under the radar of Marvel’s big events is not an indication of trouble, it’s a good thing! I own every single issue of the comic from #61 to present, with the first 60 issues in omnibi form. I’ll keep the collection going as long as Marvel keeps the title going, and I’m happy to not have to buy squillions of tie-in issues to get a complete story. The main book has remained amazingly autonomous over the years, and I’m happy for it to stay that way.
January 27th, 2012 at 3:48 pm
I was thinking the same thing as Kevin P. FF is not as fun because their line-up never changes!
January 27th, 2012 at 5:36 pm
Perhaps this is cliched thinking, but: I guess I subscribe to the belief that we’re in an anti-hero mode at the moment.
All the exciting, critically-acclaimed shows on TV right now all being anti-hero driven shows: Mad Men, Sopranos, the Wire, Breaking Bad; Battlestar Galactica. (Comedies tend to be more affirmative right now, e.g. Parks & Rec or maybe Modern Family, but even there, consider the reaction Louie generates). (There was just an excellent PBS documentary on this very topic, though the name eludes me).
With the FF, in Civil War– the big story where they were most featured, they went with a “the family is torn apart”– that was one of the key events. (The family being torn apart is also a key image in most of the big cable dramas at the moment; I’d have a hard time thinking of a show that doesn’t feature that at the moment). But I suppose they didn’t go anywhere with that…? And everyone can quit the FF only so many times, I guess…?
ON THE OTHER HAND, maybe I’m completely wrong because… because there’s that monologue that Toby Maguire or whoever has in Ang Lee’s movie version of Rick Moody’s the Ice Storm (never read the book)–
“In issue 141 of the Fantastic Four, published in November, 1973, Reed Richards had to use his anti-matter weapon on his own son, who Aannihilus has turn into the Human Atom Bomb. It was a typical predicament for the Fantastic Four, because they weren’t like other superheroes. They were more like a family. And the more power they had, the more harm they could do to each other without even knowing it. That was the meaning of the Fantastic Four: that a family is like your own personal anti-matter. Your family is the void you emerge from, and the place you return to when you die. And that’s the paradox – the closer you’re drawn back in, the deeper into the void you go.”
January 28th, 2012 at 3:48 am
When Reed went from Scientist, to magic-science-god, is when things went horribly wrong.
January 28th, 2012 at 12:35 pm
It’s a weird time to be wondering this. I may be wrong, but isn’t this the first time in the history of Marvel that there are TWO ongoing Fantastic Four titles? Not counting team-up-type books with Thing or Torch, I mean.
It’s also a weird time to be wondering this because people have been having this conversation for about thirty years. Blogs!
January 29th, 2012 at 9:12 pm
I think the FF, with their sci-fi and optimism would be a better fit in the DC universe. They don’t fit the hated outsider X-Men theme or the corporate Avenger theme. Their niche is better suited to the DCU, where the major heroes are divided up into families.
January 30th, 2012 at 7:31 am
Nobody can live up to the Lee/Kirby FF but John Byrne’s run came the closest. I liked Waid/Weiringo on the title but if Weiringo is not doing the art would I have read it? I think that there has to be a certain creative synergy that makes the FF a great comic. Can it be good in the current climate? Sure but it worked better when the emphasis was on the FANTASTIC.
January 30th, 2012 at 3:21 pm
Shawn, I liked the issues of Waid’s run that Howard Porter drew, so I suspect the scripting had something to do with making that book a success.
But I’d say the reason that the FF is less central to the current crop of crossovers is that they’re not really superheroes. Sure, they have powers and occasionally fight bad guys, but they’re really explorers. Thing and Human Torch can thrown down with the best of them, but they don’t go looking for trouble.
January 31st, 2012 at 1:47 pm
I think you’re on to something here. The Fantastic Four aren’t at the core of the Marvel Universe. That belongs to Captain America, Iron Man and, to a lesser extent, Thor. These are the guys that are putting the big events into motion.
In the big Marvel events, it’s usually Reed Richards that’s put forward, not the Fantastic Four. The individuals–specifically Reed and the Thing–get pushed to the center, but the group–the family–as a whole doesn’t. Like Abhay said, it’s the family torn apart that gets attention. Or Reed figuring out that’s big and scientific and cosmic.
The FF as a group don’t drive the action anymore, it just participates in it. And while that can work for some major characters (like Spider-Man, who is always the reader POV for the earth-shaking Marvel events), it feels odd to keep the FF to the side, given their history–fictional and as a publication.
Personally, I think a lot of writers have trouble writing the Fantastic Four because it’s a family with a married couple in it, and that takes a deft, subtle touch and can close off a lot of avenues of conflict (no one wants to see Reed and Sue separated or divorced). Although I enjoy Hickman’s Fantastic Four (jury’s still out on FF), I’m not totally in the bag for his run. I enjoy how he’s developed the kids and the science-y aspects of the title, but his portrayals of Reed and Sue’s and Sue and Johnny’s relationships leave me cold.
February 1st, 2012 at 1:13 pm
have you seen this fanzine
http://tagalog3p.blogspot.com/?
I accept Bendis version ( he is the number one) but 4vsAvsX is the future ( in an alternative reality¿?)
see you