They’re human right? They have needs right? He’s addressing these needs. Sure it may have not been in the most ideal way, but there it is. I don’t see what the big deal is with two adults having sex. Remind me what the controversy is all about now?

I liked the issue and plan on sticking around. I didnt realize this was even a big deal until now.

If it were 1950, Id see how this would be controversial – but in 2011. Really?

Im just glad one of the Bat-boys is having sex without having been drugged by some villainess who wants his baby.

Winick has always been a hack. nothing new.

This is like the Bizarro version of the other thread discussing this topic.

And I LOVE it.

–J.

They had sex. With costumes on. Big deal. People are just so damn precious and stuffy. The stuff done for young and older women these days have so much sex in their material from those romance novels to Desperate Housewives, Sex in the City, True blood and twilight and even Buffy and crap like gossip girls. Come on enough of the hypocrisy. Winnick good for you. Also note who are fussing the older fans and women like Laura Hudson. Not the younger ones who I expect don’t give a crap.

They, pretty obviously, did it on a rooftop during Hush, did they not? How is this news?

I believe that they slept together in Batman Inc #1. It wasn’t shown like in Catwoman but it was heavily hinted.

I don’tobject to them having sex, it’s how its portrayed that offends me, maybe i am prudish but superhero comics are primarily for young people and as far as i was aware there was no “this issue contains themes of an adult nature” warning. i started collecting comics when i was 8 and if i had seen this ,in a batman related comic which i would have assumed to be fairly innocent, it would have really upset me. they didnt have to show so much, subtlety in this situation would have been very useful..

My favorite part of the issue is when it brings up batman doesn’t know who she is, despite her having a mask off half the issue and despite the fact the bad guys know where she lives. Wouldn’t batman.

Also I haven’t read anyone having issues with sex, but the depiction of sex between two people who are now strangers, and how the last panel just took it over the line

@ Laura Kim Gail Simone would have been better suited to write this.

Really? Simone has done her share of writing crap too (wonder woman wanting a sperm bank) and even titillating crap (secret six). Just cause she is a woman she can get away with it?

I still don’t understand the uproar.

Batman and Catwoman have been having sex for years. It was shown (in shadow) in HUSH; implied in BATMAN INC and CATWOMAN; implied in BATMAN And DETECTIVE COMICS in the early ’80s; etc..

And they are not strangers….they’ve known each other for years. Just in the new continuity, Selina doesn’t know that Batman is Bruce Wayne. I guarantee Batman knows Catwoman is Selina, whether or not she thinks so.

They are two single individuals. It was consensual.

And the poster who said “Superhero comics are primarily for young people” obviously has not been paying attention to who’s at the store when he purchases his books. They’re are rarely young people there. And for those that bought it — the two characters keep most of their clothes on. You see more graphic sex on network television than you did here.

@James

LOLOCAUST. As an 8 year old boy, you’d have been “upset” at the image of Catwoman on top of Batman? BULLSHIT.

I could pull out DOZENS of scans of Bat-books from the 80s where we saw this exact same scene. As graphic, maybe not. But c’mon people – enough of the “WHAT ABOUT THE CHILDREN!!” Especially from people who clearly either a) have no children or b) are sheltering their own beyond belief.

I actually thought I’d hate the book (not a Winick fan) but I was surprised by how much I liked the book. And as for the sex scene, I thought it worked. It’s been hinted at by others that they have had rooftop encounters/relations before, they just haven’t been so graphically displayed. Kids might read this, sure, but DC has been screaming that their target audience w/ the new #1′s are 18-34 year olds. And Selina seemed very much in character.

What surprises me is that this is getting MORE attention than what hapenedto Starfire in Redhood and the Outlaws! They lobotomized Starfire, removed her passion, her joy, her love of life and her ability to remember anyone! Or even distinguish between people! She doesn’t remember her Teen Titan days, her almost marrying Dick Grayson. A proud, passionate warrior princess was reduced to a sex toy with frikkin’ laser beams.

Always amusing watching a few critics pop up every time Winick’s name is mentioned. Their ad hominem attacks on Winick are beyond boring.

On the other hand, it’s good to see Bruce and Selina’s relationship brought out of the closet and into the light. Past comics only hinted at their relationship, just as the 1960s “Batman” merely hinted at Robin’s relationship with Batman as a “ward”. So long as the nature of the relationship was murky, you could interpret Catwoman either as a dim-witted brat with a total lack of impulse control, or a strong, assertive woman confident in her feelings about what she wanted and how she wants it.

Thanks to Winick’s characterization, we know.

Hush didn’t happen in this new timeline sense in Hush Batman revealed he was Bruce Wayne to her. Catwoman does indeed seem reckless and not that good of a thief in this issue. Hopefully the next writer will write her as an intellegent powerful woman instead of this trainwreck, weak, needy, character. What does Batman see in this version of Catwoman? An easy five minute thrill? Wish she at least had a new different costume. I have never liked the current look.

Talk about taking a character back 20 steps.

From an interview with brubaker during his acclaimed Catwoman run:

TOM SPURGEON: How did you begin your very successful run on Catwoman? That book was very different before you got it. It was an exemplar of cheesecake comics.

ED BRUBAKER: The art on that was really in-your-face T&A stuff. Which I guess sold really well for a while there. I had been working on Batman for about six months or something. One of the editors we were working with on one of those crossovers, not my editor, Matt Idelson who is the editor of Gotham Central now, he called to ask me about something. He mentioned Catwoman, and I sort of ran off for a little while about how I had read the recent couple of issues and what I thought they should be doing with that book instead and how I felt the character was really underutilized and that she was really kind of a cool character if you let her be. But it was kind of disgusting the way she was always portrayed as this real sort of fawning, “Oh, I have to make out…” She couldn’t have a guest appearance in any comic without kissing the main character, [Spurgeon laughs] in a really grotesque way. She could be really tough and smart and everything, and then she would do this fake shaking-her-tail kind of shit. I’ve never known a woman like that, outside of high school. [Spurgeon laughs.]

So I was talking to him about it, and I just cut him off when he was about to offer me the job, so he mentioned Catwoman and I started listing what I would do with the book if it were mine. He said, “Well, do you want to write it then?” I was like, “Uh… can I do anything I want with it?” “Yeah, pretty much.” And I asked, “Can we give her a new costume?” “Probably.” And I was like, “Can we get a new artist?” “Sure.” So I said all right, I’d do it for a year, and that was that. Then I immediately started sending him samples from different artists and going “Can we get this guy?”

Ed Brubaker’s run on Catwoman was horrible. Brubaker was the hack who had Selina f**k Slam Bradley, a man old enough to be her GRANDFATHER!!! *shudders*
At least Winick knows Brulina belong together.

This has nothing to do with two consenting adults. It has nothing to do with the characters having sex It has everything to do with how you choose to present it. And how many shots do we need of Catwomans one boob hanging out or ass stuck up in the air. It makes me feel like the creative team had no confidence in the content of the book. If Winick and company want to give me an adult take on Catwoman that’s fine, but this is soft core porn. And I can get that free.

I don’t know what soft core porn your watching but this isn’t even close. Like i said RELAX!!!!

i cannot believe [people care about this and not that the whiped out years of continuity.

I am a young reader, and I bought this yesterday. KABOOM! …let the sparks fly!

it’s more of dc trying to create “controversy” where none exists. big flippin’ deal. these books and what they’ve done to the characters sucks though. sell-outs.

The creators should be ashamed of themselves. It’s not the sex, it’s the hyper sexualisation and objectification of Selina Kyle. Really it took 3 pages before you bothered to show her face – an afterthought after 2 pages of gratuitous breast and ass shots.

Clearly you showed what we are supposed to value in Selina Kyle – her sexual parts.

It was labeled T+ frankly I was more disturbed by Selina clawing her Mother’s killers face apart.

It’s funny there’s so much blood and violence in many of these books yet when sex appears its a big deal.

Last week violence, this week sex, next week drugs?

“Catwoman is a character with a rich comic book history, and my hope is that readers will continue to join us as the adventure continues.”

Too bad you ignored her “rich comic book history” and focused on her tits, eh?

I hate Catwoman. Always have. Always will. She’s about as interesting as Green Arrow. The only time Green Arrow had any sense of being a real character was when Mike Grell wrote him for awhile. Then he reverted back to what he was (corny version of Hawkeye with his cute little trick arrows) when Kevin (The accursed Jabba)Smith brought him back from the dead to fight Melvin and his Monsters or whatever.Sorry…but thats my taste(whether its agreed with or not).

Catwoman hasnt had any real sense of being anything other than “Sexy little minx who likes pretty baubles” for years. She had a really good mini series right after Batman Year One—but everything after that has fell into the one sentence formula above. Gail Simone is the only person I know who writes really good female characters. Thats why my money’s going to Batgirl…and not “sexy little minx who likes baubles” errr.. I mean Catwoman.

i didnt read catwoman but i have no problem with her and bats having sex but not sure i would have given the issue to an 9 year old.

i thought starfire’s treatment in red hood was worse and i barely read the character.

I was just looking at the issue again, and I actually think I like Catwoman’s character more at a second glance. At first, I wasn’t a huge fan, but I think it makes sense.

It’s a different take on a younger Selina. Her career as a thief isn’t that far along, so she doesn’t have a stockpile of money yet. She also doesn’t have the money to afford multiple homes, so she’s gotta keep her stuff with her. She’s impulsive, and it shows in her fighting style as well as her decisions. It gets her into trouble, sure, but isn’t that the point? The whole DCnU reboot was so that the characters can be less than 100% put together and in control because that’s when they are more fun.

Are people mad because she’s sexual, or because she’s a WOMAN who’s sexual? Are they not allowed to be? It’s not like she’s portrayed as a whore. She even chose her undercover disguise so she wouldn’t have to deal with sleazy guys groping her when she could’ve easily been written to enjoy that or something else sick like that. This version reminds me a little more of Marvel’s Black Cat who was always more fun anyway.

This is all I’ve got to say about this

http://www.comicvine.com/myvine/dmc/my-catwoman-1-rant-thanks-a-lot-winick/87-73727/

Nice batch of assumptions, JMXG–well-founded! (Where’s an eye-rolling emoticon when you need one?)

“Frankly, it comes of as more over-saturation of the naive, self-centered, and quintessentially juvenile delusion of perpetual inculpability, and in truth, it probably likely is.” >psssst!< Catwoman IS A THIEF!!!! Always has been. Batman is a grown man who dresses like a bat. How do naivete, juvenilia, and,in Catwoman's case (seeing as how she's a THIEF), inculpability NOT make sense?

Classless.

Some of you posters against the scene are making some reasoned points about subtlety. For example, Brian Real’s above post talking about things being unseen vs shock. But some other points… shock isn’t always exploitation. Nor is it necessarily always bad writing.

I love comic books as a medium. I love it all. I love the high brow and yes, I love some of the low brow, and I love the stuff in between. Not everything is meant to be an art book. And all you guys who complain about DC super-hero books being too ‘in your face’ and lacking ‘subtlety’… For christ’s sake. They’re brightly colored picture stories about people in spandex having adventures. Yes, subtlety is great! But so are big shocking images! Next thing you’ll all be asking for every fight scene to occur tastefully in the corner of one page, while the rest of the issue is everybody talking about and around the single panel action sequence and oh so subtly informing us of events.

Yes, subtlety is great. It’s not the only valid option to tell a story. It’s okay if more in your face stuff isn’t for YOU but don’t assume that lack of subtlety immediately indicates failure on the part of creators or that it automatically indicates lack of merit.

What does the rating “T+” mean? Tits plus?

A few DC reboots ago, Catwoman was a hooker.

And on Earth 2, Batman is a virgin. (Being, you know, a bachelor and all.)

As a misogynist, I am deeply offended by the fact that Catwoman appears to be taking the initiative. And can’t wait to see Wonder Woman being broken and soiled. (Preferably by Capt. Nazi in combination with Gorilla Grodd.)

http://www.bleedingcool.com/2011/09/22/behind-the-scenes-on-starfire-and-red-hood-and-the-outlaws-1/

The same issue with Kory applies here for Catwoman. Just like in the meeting, it seems that male writers think that “strong woman = slut”. Way to represent, DC. The women in upper management at DC should be ashamed of themselves for allowing this to happen.

I initially thought the complaints about “no women in comics” that was brought to Dan at Comic Con was a bit lame, but I now realize that the issue is much bigger, and much, much worse.

There needs to be an immediate rethink on things.

Someone needs firing. And then, please, hire a woman in their place.

Sure, sales might be big with this crap. But not for the right reasons. If demoralizing women is the cost?

Classless.

My girlfriend just asked me to add this:
“May the amazons one day lose their shackles that men continue to trap them in.”

Personally, I didn’t have any problem with it. This isn’t the first time and won’t be the last. I think it fits into their relationship because they both can’t actually be together and this kind of fleeting moment is what they can do together.

I’ve never disliked Winick, having only read his first volume of Exiles which I vaguely remember was good and heard the rest was good also. When it comes to DC’s New 52 though, he’s already has 2 good books with Batwing and Catwoman.

Beano said “And on Earth 2, Batman is a virgin. (Being, you know, a bachelor and all.)”

He did get married to Selena and had a daughter with her, Helena.

Remember, folks:

DC does not care about female characters.

DC does not care about female readers.

DC does not care about female creators.

You ask me, Catwoman is the first time DC showed they care about female characters. Sure there was boobie fodder for the guys (at least those who like that sort of thing), but this is Selena Kyle. Is sex part of who she is and how she moves? Of course! This isn’t as odd as the completely random nude wonder woman scene.

Kitty likes to scratch, yall. And kitty likes to #$@*! Leave her alone, enough with the double standards.

You go, Selena! And you go too, Bats. We all gots needs, yall!

Y’gotta think its a small step from running a few panels of Batman-Catwoman foreplay to stuff like “Cherry Poptart” or “Omaha the Cat Dancer,” no?
We tackle the issue at Comics Examiner. Take a look:
http://www.examiner.com/comics-in-national/batman-and-catwoman-like-to-have-sex-public

Alex, I agree with you on all points, every comment.

DC, I’m your target demographic. I’m a straight white male. I find this hatred of women deplorable.

Are womens’ physiques in comic books any more idealized than the mens’? I like romance and emotion in my superhero comics – to me it was a very real moment where Selina, having just lost her home, was feeling vulnerable and just needed someone. I have read comics for 30 years, but am virtually brand-new to DC. Really jumping on board the relaunch and without a lot of knowledge of DC characters many moments in this new line have interested and surprised me.

Wow, I think everyone is missing the obvious criticism here. Yes, this is in-character for Bats and Cats and ,yes, this does feel awkward for a DC comic based in the Bat Family. Everyone is piling on Winick but the problem lies with the artist — wonderfully detailed art is the problem. This scene would have worked beautifully if it was rendered in silhouettes with revealing highlights. Instead, there is no intimacy in a sequence that’s entirely about intimacy. The characters are fully displayed in their erotic encounter and most of us feel a little dirty for watching them. But tasteful cloaking would have added to the mystery, reduced the raunch and allowed our pervish little minds to fill in the exact amount of filth that we feel comfortable with. This was just a bad call on the artist’s part.

So DC hates women you say, and the creators are disrespectful? Funny that no one mentions Selinas friend, who is her fence from the issue, the one that Selina says used to be a showgirl, well the artist did a great job of drawing her with a figure that is more in step with the average woman, and not at all “cheesecake”. I think that Judd and the artist should be given kudos for that alone, which is not something that I have seen in any of the other DCNu releases.

“The characters are fully displayed in their erotic encounter and most of us feel a little dirty for watching them.”

That’s what Batman said.

Well, I think that’s the point. Catwoman is empowered by this issue. Usually, Batman gets his way and is able to walk away, but not this time. The rawness of the scene is exactly what makes it work for me.

Catwoman isn’t a heroine. She’s an anti heroine. She’s a thief. A burgler. An ex-prostitute that goes out at night with a catsuit to steal stuff and some casual sex with Batman. That’s what she is. You’re supposed to feel a little dirty. Batman feels a little dirty. Winnick made a home run with this first issue imho. Catwoman is a controversial character, it’s only fair that her stories generates controversy.

I wasn’t buying this comic, but I am now.

@Bruce W, it seems like a LOT of people find these stories interesting and entertaining (btw, stories that are shocking can be entertaining and interesting). It’s weird that you’ve missed all the coverage of this fact. Check the various retailer articles that every comics website is running.

For years (decades) people have been titillated by the idea of Btaman getting it on w. Catwoman. Now a writer flips the POV of that dynamic and suddenly he’s a despicable misogynist? Even if he’s tone deaf (and at least some women have said they’re down with it), I don’t see how this is so offensive.

RE: Starfire–I ask again, James Bond gets a knowing wink for sleeping with women without a second thought; why is applying the same trait to Starfire suddenly a huge betrayal? Even if it turns out NO women have any interest in reading about women who get to have no-strings-attached sex with hunky superheroes, why is this miscalculation considered an act of emotional aggression? There’s precedent in the genre. I ask this as someone who grew up w/Wolfman-Perez Titans and thus is totally bummed that Starfire and Nightwing aren’t a couple AND that Speedy has been relegated to second banana to Jason Todd.

Remember who she worked with/loved? This is a REBOOT for Christ’s sake. This isn’t the same Catwoman you read it before.

She doesn’t look like a robot to me. Actually, she looks more fleshed out than most of their last comics before the reboot. There’s a line between hating some of Winnick’s stuff that are really bad and this issue. That’s actually an awesome comic book. It’s a bold new direction and it’s getting people talking.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion here, but not their own facts: despite everyone referring to this being in public and out on an open rooftop, it is actually INSIDE the penthouse.

Judd Winick’s quote reads like it was vetted by DC executives. He’s gone from sensitive liberal to The Man.
I linked to this article, along with my own thoughts, on my website: http://alldaycomics.com/2011/09/23/the-dc-new-52-pimps-n-hos-up-in-here/
Thanks for following up on this story, Newsarama.

As someone who read the issue and had MAJOR issues with it, it’s not just the raunchy, tacky sex scene at the end that plays to straight male fantasies, it’s ALSO the fact that for the FIRST TWO PAGES all we see are SELINA’S BOOBS AND BUTT. We don’t even see her FACE! She’s not even treated as if she’s a COMPLETE character EVER in the story. EVERY chance they can they have her STRIPPED down to her bra. Then it ends with a HUGE WASTE of space that Catwoman is NOTHING MORE than the woman that BANGS Batman. That’s all she is. She’s not a thief, she steals NOTHING in the entire issue. She’s not intelligent, every move she’s made has been STUPID and badly planned (if at all). She doesn’t do much of anything in the entire issue except beat up on a guy for some past event that really made no sense and to do that of course, she had to get stripped down to her BRA.

The problem with this title as most of you people seem to be MISSING is that Catwoman ISN’T IN IT! She’s nothing more than a BLOW UP DOLL for Batman. She’s not fleshed out, she’s not given realistic motivations, hell.. she’s not even remotely upset that her apartment was just firebombed AGAIN. Nope, all she cares about is showing of her TITS AND BUTT and screwing Batman. That’s what we’ve told NEW READERS to Catwoman. Because as far as MOST people are concerned, there wasn’t a Catwoman before now (and DC is portraying it like that as well). There has never been a Catwoman until now.. so forget Hush forget any past stories you want to bring up because they don’t appear to have HAPPENED. Instead, all that’s appeared is a woman that is created to SATISFY the male readers and not a REAL human being. That is sad and it’s pathetic. It’s horrible that DC allowed such garbage to be published. Look, if they want to write to make the new TAROT, that’s FINE.. but DON’T CALL IT CATWOMAN and have enough decency to WARN us that it’s going to be nothing more than a soft-core porn mag.

I’m a Marvel fan, never read anything from DC until all these #1s, and I’m a woman: I loved it. In fact, It’s the only DC title I plan on getting a #2.

Judd says, “This is a Catwoman for 2011.”

No, it isn’t. It’s a Catwoman for 1993, and the slobs who loved the bubblebabes of CrossGen Comics. It’s a Victoria’s Secret ad for fratboys during The Game: slick, slinky, stupid.

The real Catwoman of 2011 would be the CATWOMAN comics of 2001 by Ed Brubaker and Darwyn Cooke. That Selina actually did what you think you’re doing. She was street-smart, mature, complex, bad-ass, and in control of her sensuality. Her hardboiled stories were sharp, insightful, and based on her mind and skills instead of her curves. She also had kinky sex often with Batman. But those night moves actually expressed her maturity and sexual freedom in all the ways that your juvenile fantasy doesn’t.*

(*Readers: check out the graphic novel, SELINA’S BIG SCORE, and the first two years of CATWOMAN (2001).)

You’re getting CATWOMAN as completely wrong as you are getting BATWING right. You have it in you to do better.

BATWOMAN is the real hero for 2011. Smart fans, buy that book instead…and send DC the message where they really understand it.

Superhero Porn. A stupid idea designed to sell comics to sexually frustrated fan boys. I say, burn this crap, and walk away from comics…..forever.

Americans are prudes. Pure and simple. Except… that the fact is that many are NOT prudes, but the others just can’t deal with their OWN sexuality. Americans have immature attitudes towards sexuality. People like sex. And you know what… that’s OKAY. Batman and Catwoman can be sexual creatures. They can %$#% on top of rooftops if they like, and that’s fine. They are consenting adults. They are already violent vigilantes. Hell, Catwoman’s a thief. And this is what people lose their &%$% about. I have to censor myself here, because, oh noes, if I say a “dirty” word people might cry. That is the problem. Keep on keeping on Judd. And people who don’t like it… go read something else.

Hope the pregnancy storyline is next

It’s bizarre how many people think people have a problem with characters having sex, when the problem is the ridiculous objectification displayed in the issue; taking what was once a strong female character and only focusing on T&A.

And yes, this needs to be linked to again and again:
http://www.comicsalliance.com/2011/09/22/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine

@ Martin: I don’t know why CW isn’t a strong character just because she wears sexy underwear and has sex. I suspect that, by the time this storyline is over, she’ll have kicked a lot of ass. In the meantime, this issue illustrates what her relationship with Batman is and what the tone will be (playful sexuality).

RE: Starfire, she’s still kicks ass and I would think that she, too, is being set up for further development.

If both writers drop the ball then maybe some of these complaints will make more sense but, until then, I think these comments reflect people’s lack of comfort with their (or others’) sexuality. I’m dismissing most men’s comments outright; I don’t think they’re in a position to determine if women choosing to have sex with whomever they want is sexist or not. However, I’d be interested in learning WHY some women think only men want to see women having sex with whomever they choose (btw, I’ve never fantasized about a woman I’m sleeping with having sex with another man; that’s more like a nightmare to me). I’m wondering if these judgments are based on assumptions about where the writers are coming from (based on their experience with men), rather than on the actual content.

So, where’s that dirty/sexy/dirty/sexy swagger now Judd? Sounds like someone neutered you.

@ Martin: really digging your posts.

@ Paula G: Really? You think that Selina is intelligent? As compared to the last 10 years of her characterization? I’d love to hear you flesh out this opinion, as quite honestly, I don’t understand it at all.

Dear Judd: I’m sorry we’re all dumping on you. It’s, well, it’s not just you, as much as this is a bigger problem that you happen to have drank the kool-aid of. Maybe it’s time to relook at some of your go-to characterizations when it comes to women? I felt like you got it right in the recent JLI; to be honest, I wish you were still writing JLI now. I loved what you did with all of them, and I kinda miss your spin of them after reading the new #1.

DC, can we get Judd back on JLI? He was really rocking that. Seriously.

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