So, wait. I think I’ve got it. Someone at DC was nervous that, by shipping both Wonder Woman and Birds of Prey in the same week, they were risking alienating the all-important “objectifying women as sex objects” misogynist demographic, and so decided to “fix” things by pushing Catwoman and Red Hood and the Outlaws at the same time. I mean, that’s the only reasonable explanation, right? Right? Spoilers ahead.From Catwoman #1:
Yes, that is Catwoman having sex with Batman. You know, that thing that those people who really wanted to see used to have to go online and search for? Now it’s right there in the comics themselves! Obviously, a victory for people with specific fetishes and limited imaginations and/or Google skills, because… Oh, come on: Do I really have to explain why this scene is completely gratuitous, demeaning to Catwoman as a character and as the star of her own book? Yes, she can hold it together while escaping her apartment being blown up and infiltrating and then escaping a Russian mob hangout after beating up some old guy who may or may not have been her pimp when she was younger, but she goes to pieces when a real man shows up because… oh, God. I can’t go on.
Meanwhile, over in Red Hood:
That’s right, fanboys! You liked it when Starfire wanted to jump into bed with Robin way back when they were in the New Teen Titans together? Well now she’s a sex-hungry warrior bimbo who not only can’t remember her ex-boyfriend, but can’t tell men apart so she’ll sleep with them all! That’s, uh, definitely the reboot that some people were potentially wanting to see! Maybe! Possibly.
Both issues have already attracted a lot of criticism online, and for good reason. These are just embarrassing, unnecessary scenes that reinforce the idea of superhero comics as an inherently misogynistic genre favored by uncomfortable boys with no idea of how to talk to women, and in both cases, they’re completely screwing up the cross-gender appeal of characters who actually have name recognition outside of the hardcore comic fanbase. Seriously, DC, these were just completely embarrassing, horrible moves. This is the best foot forward for selling these characters to a new audience? Honestly?
September 21st, 2011 at 2:27 pm
Sometimes…sometimes comics just make me want to cry.
September 21st, 2011 at 3:20 pm
Yes, shocking, ill-advised, etc. But also: “Dick? Garth? Dustin? Vic? Lilith? Gar?” Is this the makeup of the “new” DC Relaunch New Teen Titans? Who’s Dustin?
September 21st, 2011 at 3:22 pm
that is bad, the catwoman one especially, it’s demeaning to both batman and catwoman, theres always been a bit of sexual tension between them but to have it on display, on the rooftops of gotham? it’s not like bruce can’t afford a motel, or selina doesn’t have a place to stay, please tell me this is them in the present, knowing each others identities and not just both of them losing control to their lusts cus thats ridicolous…and i know comics aren’t just for kids but lets face it superhero comics usually are and to have adult themes is good, it adds depth but can’t they be a little more subtle, show them in bed under sheets..this is very nearly pornographic comic books, something i thought only alan moore would do…
September 21st, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Okay, I understand the Starfire criticism as demeaning toward women, and I even understand the Catwoman when limited to criticizing the sex scene as a glorified fanfiction moment, but what I don’t understand is why the Catwoman scene is demeaning toward women. I mean, Batman and Catwoman mutually have sex with each other, yet the act is only demeaning toward her? What’s time implication there? That when a man fulfills his sexual needs he maintains his self-respect, but when a woman does it, she automatically loses it? I know in your mind it comes off as feminism and is well intended, but that’s a surprisingly puritanical, Madonna/Whore viewpoint.
I agree the Catwoman scene is gratuitous, fanwankish and overall awful, but I don’t see it as disrespectful for women for Catwoman to get her sexual needs met. I mean, come on, this is a woman who STEALS and commits crime, for Pete’s sake. We’re not going to criticize her character as insulting to women for doing things that are actually criminal and more objectively immoral like stealing and breaking the law, but once she has sex, THEN we’re showing a bad depiction of women?
September 21st, 2011 at 3:50 pm
How many times during the course of the hype did we hear how the DC revamp is aimed at today’s youth? What is wrong with editorial at DC? How do you even sit through the pitch for the IDEA of the first issue of CATWOMAN focusing on her having in-your-face sex with Batman and not laugh the creative team out of the room?
These two examples along with last week’s SUICIDE SQUAD (a full issue of torture porn) says so much about the editorial team in charge. They didn’t even bother to sneak it all in down the road to scratch that itch! These DC creators can’t wait ONE MONTH to go without titillation and just focus on character and story for the general public…like they have all said they would? Pathetic. It’s official now…New DC…ONLY for the same adult fanboys it ever was. Only now with more SEX & VIOLENCE!
September 21st, 2011 at 4:02 pm
Lobdell bringing his some of X-sexism to the DC universe. It’ll be a hit though. New readers will eat this up and then the event cancellation reboot train will go and on and on with the Strange Woman showing her face. Until the new readers figure out the scame after about 5 years.
And keep in mind, we’re talking about the same people that played a part in bringing us those nutty 90′s Marvel and Image swimsuits issues. Lee, Harras, Lobdell we’re part of the gravy train. yeeeeck
September 21st, 2011 at 4:04 pm
Here’s the other kicker about the ridiculous first issue of CATWOMAN…the editor is a woman: Rachel Gluckstern.
Out of 20 pages of story, seven pages of the book feature CW in her bra. Four pages feature CW grinding into Bats. So as Rachel is collecting the penciled pages turned in by the artist Guillem March, I wonder what the feedback was: “MMM, can you add more lace?” or “Her back needs to arch more in panel 3″.
September 21st, 2011 at 4:09 pm
I’m confused.
I can understand people being up in arms about this particular art being sort of tasteless and trashy-looking and pornified, but are they also mad that the (implied?) sex itself is taking place? Haven’t Batman and Catwoman been there/done that in comics? Movies?
September 21st, 2011 at 4:31 pm
Frelncer: Your argument of CATWOMAN SHE DRESS TOO SEXY is… baffling. This is the one about the amoral whip-wielding, master-thief dominatrix and occasional terrorist who dresses in skin-tight leather, right?
What book do you think you’re reading, exactly?
September 21st, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Chip, the problem is not with the look of Catwoman OR the fact that she and Bats get it on. Artists can draw her nude for all I care…in any other month but this one.
You have to look at the problem with not only this CATWOMAN issue but the others listed in this post in the context of what DC was working so hard to accomplish IN THIS PARTICULAR MONTH of a high profile, mass media relaunch backed heavily by WB to capture attention and hopefully a new younger generation of readers (The words of Lee, Johns and Didio over and over) and the reasons why they are in this position in the first place.
Why any of them thought the content in these described issues was the way to go about that goal in the very first issues stuns those of us hoping for success.
September 21st, 2011 at 4:54 pm
You think Batman used a condom? If so where did he get it? Does he just carry them around?
September 21st, 2011 at 4:56 pm
Frelncer, if anyone seriously thought that a comic relaunch spearheaded by people like Didio, Johns and Winick was going to be tasteful and restrained in regards to sex and violence, they haven’t been paying attention that past 6 years. To them, that IS what kids want/need.
September 21st, 2011 at 5:04 pm
Americans are funny.. they love violence and blood, but can stand sexuality and sex. Ridiculous.
September 21st, 2011 at 5:07 pm
the bigger question, since of course he uses a condom, he’s batman, he’s prepared for everything, is whether it has a bat symbol on it. and if so, which one?
September 21st, 2011 at 5:08 pm
i guess he has different ones to match the costume he’s wearing.
September 21st, 2011 at 5:13 pm
I agree with what T. said.
Frelncer, the kids want to see sex.
September 21st, 2011 at 5:14 pm
In catwoman’s case it can be argued that as a strong woman she is the sexual predator who initiates sex. I am woman hear me roar and all that. Personally for me, the most gratuitous objectifying scene was that of Starfire flicking her hair by the beach in her bikini. To me that is just gratuitously drawn to titillate the penthouse/playboy/sports illustrated male readers in the market and display the artist and the writer’s own narrow visions.
September 21st, 2011 at 5:15 pm
It’s also interesting to note that Batman and Catwoman having sense is an example of BATMAN breaking down, not Catwoman. Batman is the one who’s always kept the relationship at arm’s length. If anyone has fallen apart as a prelude to sex in this situation, it would be Batman, not Catwoman.
September 21st, 2011 at 6:25 pm
I’m still wondering who Dustin is?
Catwoman should have been rated T+. Red Hood is fine as T. It’s just conversation hinting at sex. The new52 is mainly aimed at the 18-35 crowd. The larger audience is 14-54. So they now what they’re aiming for.
September 21st, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Remember folks:
DC does not care about female characters.
DC does not care about female readers.
DC does not care about female creators.
September 21st, 2011 at 8:11 pm
Both Catwoman and Red Hood stink of desperation.
DC sales were in the toilet, and this is the last ditch effort to save the company. 52 Hail Mary passes into the end zone.
Catwoman was, needless to say, not what I expected to find in a Bat-title. I agree that the rating should have been T+ + +. Catwoman wasn’t edgy, mature, cutting edge or anything like that. It was just sad. Sad that this is what Batman has become in the stewardship of this generation.
Red Hood was as juvenile as it could possibly be. Perfect for a 14-17 year old, but not for anyone younger and certainly not anyone older.
If you told me a sophomore in high school wrote Red Hood, I would be impressed and slap them on the back. If you told me a responsible adult wrote Red Hood, I’d be embarrassed for them.
Yuck on both books.
September 21st, 2011 at 8:53 pm
Okay, in defense of DC, I get more of a misanthropic vibe from them than a misogynist. I think they more just don’t like people in general, including male characters, readers and creators.
September 21st, 2011 at 9:52 pm
Cue some drone editor saying “Hey, if they care enough to talk about the book, we must be doing something right!” I would love, just for variety’s sake, to have one of these company people just flat out admit what they’re doing and why.
September 21st, 2011 at 10:38 pm
Could’ve been worse….at least the mysterious hooded lady wasn’t peeking in from outside.
September 22nd, 2011 at 6:18 am
Judd Winick writes Catwoman. He likes writing about comic book characters having sex. I purchased neither of these titles yesterday and I’m a big supporter of the New 52. I don’t have faith in the writer for one title (Catwoman) and the main character in the other one (Jason Todd).
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:11 am
@Sam,
I don’t think it’s puritanical to not want to see this weird fetish fanboy fiction.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:11 am
Didn’t buy this but why does Batman look like he’s passed out or been knocked out? Shouldn’t Bruce be up for this? lol
I think its just DC trying to get attention for the “drastic” or “dramatic” changes they’ve done and increase sales.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:23 am
–sigh–
Sex in comics … sex in entertainment … how hoooorrrriiibbbllleee..!
Leonard & Penny don’t lay in bed naked in THE BIG BANG THEORY, implying earlier fornication?
You people are nuts.
Women don’t read novels with covers like this?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-OPcaP0vzk4c/TVtgYdRz3BI/AAAAAAAAAZA/rjqDOcjHNaA/s1600/hilarious-romance-novel-cover-art.jpg
Or this?
http://worldoflongmire.com/features/romance_novels/mcmullet.jpg
Or this?
http://scottgladden.com/graphics/small/gentle_warrior.jpg
Or this?
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_nhteQqUzS9M/TIw3GGUMvjI/AAAAAAAAAbE/OeC1KM6EoQs/s320/Gentle+Rogue.jpg
Grow up.
Thanks for your time,
–J.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:55 am
The biggest problem with the Catwoman thing in my eyes, is it’s horribly drawn. The anatomy is all jacked up and it’s not even the slightest bit erotic looking. Major fail.
To Joe, surely a mature adult like you understands that none of your examples are marketed at kids or were created for childrens stories which kind of makes your examples, I dunno? pointless and irrelevant?
Better luck next time.
September 22nd, 2011 at 8:56 am
Bleeding Cool has a good look at the violence end and what is rated T according to DC. “T TEEN Appropriate for readers age 12 and older. May contain mild violence, language and/or suggestive themes.”
http://www.bleedingcool.com/forums/showthread.php?47329-What-Does-The-T-Grade-Mean-For-DC-Comics
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:50 am
Well, the visual implications of the last panel hits me like this:
“Hi, I’m Catwoman. I’m empowering. Well, I’m empowering someone, as I’m impaling myself on his manhood right now. Or he is implaing me. Tough to say. But it’s consensual. Do you understand where our sex parts are? His penis is sooooo far inside me right now moving is difficult. Yup. I’m empowered.”
Call me old school, however it seems like we’re really up for embracing sex as the same thing as, say, jogging, without really admitting that it is far more then that for most people, left, right, gay or straight. This isn’t being modern, it’s taking something and stripping it of all meaning until we all agree that sex is just about getting our rocks off. Oh, and impaling someone.
September 22nd, 2011 at 12:09 pm
@Rikk Odinson Since when are mainstream comics marketed to kids? Kids haven’t been the target demographic since the 70′s.
Teens are about as young as the comic book demographic goes these days, at least for the mainstream DC and Marvel books. And you know what teens like? Sex.
September 22nd, 2011 at 1:28 pm
@Rikk,
I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I was reading “Childrens’ Stories”. Thanks for reminding me.
DC has never claimed they are marketing these books to a younger audience. They said “NEW READERS”. That’s me being a mature adult that can read.
So, I guess that makes your sad & pathetic act of misdirected anger, I dunno? Pointless & irrelevant?
BETTER LUCK NEXT TIME SPORT!
–J.
September 22nd, 2011 at 2:35 pm
+1 to Joe Kach and Kyle Garrett. Are you (seemingly) male posters really saying you’re better able to determine whether Catwoman’s hook up with Batman will appeal to women than, say, Winnick’s female editor? Do you guys really think that NO women could identify with enjoying sleeping with a bunch of built pretty boys who rescue people for free, no strings attached? Only James Bond gets to do that, huh? This is escapism for men and women (not boys and girls). You know, some women LIKE porn; some women may like seeing superheroines have sex. For those who don’t, I’m guessing Batgirl and Supergirl are still safe.
September 22nd, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Catwoman is the reason I read comic books. As a huuuuuuuuge Brulina fan, I was extremely pleased with their sex scene. Thank you Judd for giving us this gift!
September 22nd, 2011 at 3:30 pm
Catwoman wanted to throw down with Batman – big whoop. The only difference between this and prior occurences is how in-our-face this was. As someone in my 30s, I’d prefer the sex be implied, rather than graphic – and so keep the book at least a little younger-teen friendly.
But y’know, if you check out the teen shows on TV…this is right in line with shows like the vampire crap, Gossip Girl and the rest. It’s sex, dry humping, talking about sex, and more of same.
Also, re Kory – yes, this version of her is basically a bimbo. (I think the goal is to make her alien background more alien, but bimbo is a weird destination point).
But even then, there *are* bimbos in real life. Displaying loose women (and men) doesn’t demean women as a gender; it reflects reality.
Not saying Kory should specifically be a bimbo, or not. But everytime there’s a woman that’s less than the PC “strong, independent woman” mantra – which every Hollywood screenwriter and actress plops down as a description for their female leads, even when it’s not remotely true – the better off we’ll be.
True diversity means that some women are loose, some are stupid, make bad decisions, give in to fear and hold regrets. All also have their positive qualities too, their victories, and their day in the sun.
The same is true for me. Both in comics, and in the real world.
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:18 pm
Who said I was angry Joe? Only You. Posting pics of romance novels and using them to back up your point when talking about comics was what was stupid.
You want to have masturbation material that’s cloaked in an adolescent power fantasy, then more power to you.I really don’t care. Hopefully next time, you can find something better drawn and written than this was.
Kyle,since these AREN’T being marketed at kids, you might want to mention that to the people advertising these things on Cartoon Network.
Just sayin’….
September 22nd, 2011 at 4:58 pm
Rikk: have you by any chance bothered to look at Cartoon Network’s demographics? 72.7% are between the ages of 25-54.
September 22nd, 2011 at 5:03 pm
Why can’t Catwoman have sex? I’m confused.
September 22nd, 2011 at 5:25 pm
Wow. What a bunch of prudes you are! Kori is not a bimbo because she likes sex. She is from a different culture wherein sex has nothing to do with love. You don’t have to like it OR agree with it but you can’t deny it makes sense for the character. I thought given the skimpy nature of her outfit that it was obvious dating all the way back to the Wolfman/Perez era that Starfire has a different view of sexuality than “humans”.
As for Catwoman and Batman- why can’t two single, super-attractive, horny adults with a leather fetish get their nasty groove on!? They didn’t hurt anyone (who didn’t ask for it) and it’s certainly in character, given their long history and even this new one.
I would be far more concerned about the extreme amounts of violence, criminal behavior and killings than the sexual escapades of consenting adults in a book that is most definitely geared toward “children”.
September 22nd, 2011 at 5:27 pm
Oops. That last sentence should read ..in a book that is most definitely NOT geared towards “children”.
September 22nd, 2011 at 5:32 pm
This article is taking the issue waaaay out of proportion. So heroes can’t have sex because it’s sexist.
How do you think babies are made?
September 22nd, 2011 at 6:20 pm
@XavierDust–Since you bring up the Wolfman/Perez era of Teen Titans and Starfire’s view sexuality, take a look at this scene from Wolfman’s Teen Titans run: http://www.blogcdn.com/www.comicsalliance.com/media/2011/09/tumblrlrvyo4a6oi1qdbn8fo1500.jpg and then take a look at the above image from Red Hood and the Outlaws.
The difference is pretty clear. Starfire in the first image regards sex as something special. Why? Because for her species, emotional connections are important and essential to their way of life. Even though they can have multiple relationships, they ALWAYS shared an emotional connection with their lovers and that sex was ALWAYS a physical expression of their love for their partner.
But in the second image, Starfire regards sex as something to not only pass the time but DEVOID of emotion. It’s merely a way to prevent boredom and she doesn’t care who she sleeps with because, not only will she barely remember them afterwards due to her species tendency to become easily disinterested, but that they are nothing more than a means to an end. And this is in keeping with her apparent inability to remember others and thus form lasting friendships. It’s a complete 180 of what she originally was.
September 22nd, 2011 at 7:22 pm
The issue is, for the limited amount of female characters that are represented in “The new 52″, it seems like the bimbo approach is being used more often then a deeper, layered character.
Does new DC: Women are bimbo whores?
Sure, there are women like that in the real world.
What’s really funny is, these stunts will be exactly what ends up pushing women further and further from ever touching anything from DC. Why? Because many women (except for the real world bimbos, I guess) will think, “What the hell? They made Catwoman a bitchy whore. Great. Before she had class, and now they’ve made her ANOTHER trashy, bitchy stereotype.”
Too bad bimbos rarely read comics. I guess they’d love this representation? Most female comic readers I’ve ever met have depth and class, almost as a genre marker.
I’m just thankful that Wonder Woman is being handled so well. Read her new number 1, and then Catwoman, and the difference in character depth and class is shocking.
September 22nd, 2011 at 7:27 pm
Well, this is one fan that is just turned off by DC’s need to shock and titillate whenever possible. Why can’t people remember that there’s a difference between something being “adult” and something being “grown up”?
DC Comics, especially as published now, cannot be read to my children or placed in my classroom (for high school kids). I’m not interested in reading on panel rape (IC, a few years ago), sex (this), or facial amputation (Detective 1) in a mainstream superhero comic. If I want comics with a good amount of shock value, I’ll read Preacher (which I really enjoyed), thank you very much.
Man, am I saving money these days. Thanks, DC!
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:33 pm
the catwoman and batman scene does not bother me for they have had an attraction off and on for a long time. in fact during hush they even slept together. starfire bonking every male that moves due to memory loss.tha tis not only demeaning for the character but also makes starfire come off as easy to get in the sack.
September 22nd, 2011 at 10:56 pm
A lot of these complaints are actually more sexist than the comics themselves. If a male character likes having extramarital sex its not much of an issue. If a female character has extramarital sex it means she’s either a whore, she’s stupid, she’s “falling apart before a real man”, she’s tainted, and/or she only exists as a “sex object.” Apparently Catwoman WAS a character with her own psychology, motives, and background right up to the moment she had sex. From that moment on she was somehow reduced to the status of “sex fantasy” or “sex object for fanboys.” Real enlightened.
September 23rd, 2011 at 2:05 am
Graeme Cracker where were you and all the righteous indigNation fanboys last week when Suicide Squad ammounted to nothing mopre than torture porn?
…[crickets...] thats right because sex is far worse than violence…and worrying about Waller’s weight
September 23rd, 2011 at 6:51 am
DC Comics: Drawing The Line At 69.
September 23rd, 2011 at 6:58 am
And there’s nothing MYSOGINISTIC about this.
Tawdry? Unseemly? Killing the brand with a chainsaw? Yup.
Mysoginistic? No.
September 23rd, 2011 at 8:25 am
Exactly my point as well. Very Madonna/Whorish. If she has casual sex, she’s automatically debased as a person.
September 23rd, 2011 at 9:27 am
What’s so shocking? This is the view of women’s equality that has been pushed by liberal feminists for a generation or two now: that women should be just as slutty and rapacious as men.
September 23rd, 2011 at 12:14 pm
@Rikk Odinson:
YOU’re a TOWEL!
–J.
September 23rd, 2011 at 1:05 pm
T really told my point of view:
“I agree the Catwoman scene is gratuitous, fanwankish and overall awful, but I don’t see it as disrespectful for women for Catwoman to get her sexual needs met. I mean, come on, this is a woman who STEALS and commits crime, for Pete’s sake. We’re not going to criticize her character as insulting to women for doing things that are actually criminal and more objectively immoral like stealing and breaking the law, but once she has sex, THEN we’re showing a bad depiction of women?”
(In case people aren’t noticing the sexists here are the ones bashing the books, because they only see women has mothers or whores.)
September 24th, 2011 at 11:05 pm
John Smith Says:
September 21st, 2011 at 6:30 pm
Remember folks:
DC does not care about female characters.
DC does not care about female readers.
DC does not care about female creators.
September 24th, 2011 at 11:07 pm
John 6:30
DC DOES NOT CARE about female characters.DC DOES NOT CARE about female readers.DC DOES NOT CARE about female creators.
September 25th, 2011 at 8:38 am
I’m confused. What’s that bare (or sock-wearing) foot under Catwoman’s right leg doing there? The only possibility I can see is that it’s Catwoman’s left foot, but that would put her left leg in a very unnatural position. Also, it doesn’t look to me like they can be having sex in that panel: not only does Catwoman still have her pants on, but their pelvises aren’t in the right positions relative to each other. But maybe that’s just bad drawing.
September 26th, 2011 at 1:21 pm
1) they cant be having all that much sex if her costume is still on
2) a woman who WANTS to have SEX? how demeaning! that would never happen in real life! tosser.
September 27th, 2011 at 12:36 pm
Starfire isn’t a slut who can’t remember the men she’s slept with, she has AMNESIA and can’t remember serving with the Titans at ALL. Also: Starfire is an alien whose people are uninhibited (i.e. NOT PRUDES) who wear few clothes in order to absorb as much solar radiation as possible; that radiation enables them fly and to shoot energy bolts. But hey, way to slut-shame, Graeme!
And Catwoman? Nobody seemed to mind when “Batman: Year One” revamped her into a bisexual prostitute, but show her aggressively initiating heterosexual sex and suddenly THAT’S demeaning? Give me a break.
September 28th, 2011 at 3:16 am
Wow. I didn’t know DC hires pimps to write comics now. Talk about scraping the bottom of the barrel.
September 28th, 2011 at 1:29 pm
The panel from Catwoman doesn’t offend me as a person, it offends me as an ARTIST!
September 28th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
“Starfire is an alien whose people are uninhibited (i.e. NOT PRUDES) who wear few clothes in order to absorb as much solar radiation as possible; that radiation enables them fly and to shoot energy bolts”
Hahahaha! It’s totally the plot to a bad B movie. I love how they created the entire character concept to suit their sexist motives.
September 28th, 2011 at 6:58 pm
As a avid reader and collector I have seen 33 years of comic book evolution and with each time people freak out and raise a fuss about too much sex,to much violence,this character would or wouldn’t do this or that but in the end most people stay the course and things that were recognizable will be again. Remember the new 52 are all written as if they are mostly 20 somethings and run with that mentality. Thus its very easy to see a young handsome Bruce Wayne and a hot aggressive Selina getting together. As to the art,gratuitous?yes,improper? maybe but it got you talking didnt it? As, to the maturity of the readership, comics havent been for children for a long time now and those that are marketed for them are plainly marked as such.Remember there are Batman & avenger books written for the young as well.In closing all i have to say is dont sweat it ladies and gentleman all things old will be new again!
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August 17th, 2012 at 5:19 pm
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