You know how people quote things that other people have said, and then follow it by saying “This,” to show that they agree? Well, Greg Rucka wrote this over at the Lady Sabre & The Pirates of Ineffable Aether blog yesterday:
Here’s the thing: I am sick and tired of super-heroes who aren’t super and aren’t heroes, but more, I’m sick and tired of Hollywood blaming us for their failures. I am sick and tired of hearing various Hollywood studio execs who are as disconnected from the reality of middle-American taste as Rick Perry is from Christianity excusing the poor performance of their ill-executed product by tacitly blaming you, me, and everyone else of us who didn’t pay to see their garbage. Catwoman fails? Instead of, perhaps, just perhaps, acknowledging that the movie is a piece of excrement unworthy of use as fertilizer, they conclude instead that a female lead can’t open a movie unless her name is Jolie. So now we’re not only guilty of not being willing to pay for 90 minutes of intellectual abuse, we’re all apparently sexist jerks, as well. The problem with Green Lantern’s performance at the box office is that it’s not “gritty” enough? I don’t think so.
Art – and even if that art is commercial art, produced for entertainment – feeds and is fed by the society that consumes it. So I ask you, right now, looking around you, what flavor of escapism will go down best with you? In an era of terror alerts and bipartisan dysfunction, of rising hate and blossoming intolerance, of bank failure and wide-spread, global unemployment and recession, is gritty really what we need?
Look, I like gritty. I write gritty. There is a time and a place for gritty. I’ll take my Batman gritty, thank you, and I will acknowledge that such a portrayal means that my 11 year old has to wait before he sees The Dark Knight. But if Hollywood turns out a Superman movie that I can’t take him to? They’ve done something wrong. Superman is many, many things. Gritty he is not, something that Richard Donner certainly understood.
(Pet peeve time: for the contingent out there who sneer at heroes like Superman and Wonder Woman and Captain America, those icons who still, at their core, represent selfless sacrifice for the greater good, and who justify their contempt by saying, oh, it’s so unrealistic, no one would ever be so noble… grow up. Seriously. Cynicism is not maturity, do not mistake the one for the other. If you truly cannot accept a story where someone does the right thing because it’s the right thing to do, that says far more about who you are than these characters.)
This is not an argument of era or audience sophistication. Sophistication does not negate sincerity, nor does it even deny it, as the Captain America movie proves. Sophistication demands better storytelling, clearer motivation, purer intention. “Gritty” is an apologist word in this sense, used in the place of “realism.” We don’t go to the movies for “realism.” This is why documentaries aren’t the major product in the theaters. Sophistication does not demand realism; it demands smart.
And… oh, man. This. This times a million.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:12 pm
…and right there is why i never read Greg Rucka, like Mark Waid he can’t help himself from throwing in various left-wing political and cause-oriented sucker punches ~ and it’s too bad, cuz otherwise he made a good point.
August 25th, 2011 at 12:25 pm
linkback:
http://theshizz.org/forum/index.php?/topic/15871-comics-thread/page__st__2040__gopid__1074261
August 25th, 2011 at 1:11 pm
Escapist stories don’t have to lack logic. If the characters (and their situations) lack logic, details, and realism, and are just running around because they look good and the writer wants to make a moral statement, then why read it? The writer isn’t aiming at adults.
If someone is having trouble coping with the political realities facing him today, reading or viewing escapist material that has pure heroes acting purely won’t let him escape that trouble, even while he’s watching it. He’d be better off getting himself involved in politics and fighting what he opposes.
SRS
August 25th, 2011 at 1:45 pm
I’m not exactly sure of what all the references to “sophistication,” mean, exactly. but i like movies that are about more than what they’re about (subtext and symbolism and whatnot,) and that was my main problem with captain america; it was only about what it was about. which is fine, but it could have been so much more. it could have been about say, nationalism/jingoism vs true patriotism. it could have even been about, as you say, selflessness vs cynicism. it could have been about war for a just cause vs war for other reasons. it could have even been about good vs evil, but it wasn’t even about that. i mean, in what way were hydra more evil than actual nazis? and if they weren’t, why wasn’t cap fighting actual nazis? i would have had at least one scene showing that hitler himself was afraid of red skull and thought he was (more) evil.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
just a note: a movie that had one or more of the themes i mentioned could still have been a fun, popcorn movie that kids would enjoy. look at something like the matrix say, which was about a lot more things than what it was about, but was still fun and exciting.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:56 pm
I agree with Greg, too much Alan Moore fanwanking and worship of his beliefs that the world is a brutal awful place and we should all commit suicide. Everyone seems to think that if their work is as dreary as Alan Moore’s early work. It’s an instant classic.
Kids need stories to inspire, everyone else wants a good strong story, without the pseudo idiot subtext and moronitis.
August 25th, 2011 at 1:58 pm
And what exactly is he going on about? Green Lantern’s failure at the box office?
Because that one’s easy. It IS Geoff Johns’ fault.
Johns made the writers include all of that expository Parallax/yellow ring/Hector Hammond nonsense that had no place in an origin movie.
The studio should have just stuck with the original Emerald Dawn-inspired script.
Trying to cram in too much comics continuity is what ruined GL. Not your whole “gritty” angle, Rucka.
And yeah, Cap rocked.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:00 pm
It wasn’t just the overuse comics continuity that ruined GL. It was a bad script with wooden acting and lackluster special effects. GL failed on a bunch of levels.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:06 pm
Harlock999: No, you miss his point entirely. The studio is who said the film failed because it was not gritty enough, and that to compensate the next film will be “edgier.” Greg was just pointing out how stupid and naive of an idea that was, that maybe it failed because there were faults with the movie (as you say) and not because it was gritty. He was actually arguing that not all superhero movies should be gritty, that in fact most should not be, which seems to be similar to your point as well.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:07 pm
And this is why I like Greg Rucka. I agree 100%.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:09 pm
Lackluster special effects? If the one thing that the reviewers agreed on, it was that the effects were fantastic and awe-inspiring compared to the rest of the movie (which I disagree with). Essentially the effects were eye candy and the movie lacked substance (something else I disagreed with those reviewers on).
August 25th, 2011 at 2:15 pm
I must respect Mr. Ruckas’ opinion, but I feel that it derives from personal frustration that comes from the business he’s involved with. Not only the comic business, but the entertaiment business as well. Since I’m not involed in the business, I must trust that he knows something better than me. I will say that if a movie needs to be gritty or not is open for opinion, but I’d find it more interesting to know what happened to make him so angry.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:20 pm
@Harlock999
he was referring to the studios going on and on about how they’re going to make the sequel more “gritty” because they felt that that was why the first one didn’t do well enough.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
It would take a total douchebag to dismiss Greg Rucka (or Mark Waid) because their views are “leftwing”. This is exactly the “bipartisan dysfunction” that he is talking about when we are so blinkered by the phony left-vs-right puppet show. It’s sad, and it’s one of the reasons why we’re so screwed up as a species.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:41 pm
I agree with what Greg said about the dreaded “gritty” label being placed on too many movie plots/stories I was just commenting yesterday about how the Man of Steel seems to be a “dark” affair starting with the colors of the superman suit. Again, it killed most of Brandon Routh’s movie because I really couldn’t see much of the darn thing, it was so dark.
Lighten up the suit to Christopheer Reeves colors but that doesn’t mean the current actor has to deliver his performance aping what the beloved Mr. Reeves did. The actor playing the Man of Steel just doesn’t look right for some reason to me but I’m willing to give him the opportunity to make the part his own. From Kirk to George to Chris to Dean to Tom to Brandon, we only slipped with Brandon as each made the role their own. But Brandon made up for it on Chuck, to be fair.
So, in summary:
Superman must never be gritty, he’s Superman for goodness sakes! (I’d like to believe that Christopher Nolan is smart enough to know that as well.)
August 25th, 2011 at 2:42 pm
I agree with Harlock999 that the /yellow ring/Hector Hammond nonsense hindered the origin story of Green Lantern. In addition, there were the bad character redesigns. The aliens looked like they belonged in Pan’s Labyrinth more than on the planet Oa. Hal Jordan received, what, five minutes of actual training?!? And, then there are the special effects.
Here’s the thing that (IMO) that went wrong there. Like a classic cheesy 3-D movie of the 50’s, they were so PROUD of their special effects that every time one appeared, it was like they were saying “Look! Isn’t this amazing? A race car! A jet plane! A gun turret! How cool is this?!?” The effects stood out like a bad actor hamming it up, hoping to be the breakout award winner. Make the effects blend into the world! In the world of Harry Potter, a dragon looks at home at Hogwarts OR downtown London and yet still seems ‘amazing.’ A Green Lantern construct in this movie looked like a special effect and a prototype for an up-coming toy.
Hollywood: Give us movies with well-crafted stories! Don’t give us +2 hour long commercials for related videogames, toys and other merchandise or loaded with gimmicks that you can turn into special features on expanded dvds where you all wallow in your own brilliance!
August 25th, 2011 at 2:45 pm
“Hollywood studio execs who are as disconnected from the reality of middle-American taste as Rick Perry is from Christianity.”
Rick Perry Religion is a Methodist. Methodists believe in Jesus Christ as Savior and Lord.
How is this far from Christianity?
The truth is that Rucka HATES Perry, so he attempts to smear him. If what Rucka says is false, so what, truth means nothing to these liberals.
Sad.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:52 pm
Did I read a different article? Where were the “various left-wing political and cause-oriented sucker punches”
This is an opinion peace about Hollywood executives and says nothing political in it, in my opinion.
If you are talking about this comment “In an era of terror alerts and bipartisan dysfunction, of rising hate and blossoming intolerance, of bank failure and wide-spread, global unemployment and recession, is gritty really what we need?” I don’t think there is any member of either side of the aisle that would disagree with this statement.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:55 pm
“Catwoman fails? Instead of, perhaps, just perhaps, acknowledging that the movie is a piece of excrement unworthy of use as fertilizer, they conclude instead that a female lead can’t open a movie unless her name is Jolie. So now we’re not only guilty of not being willing to pay for 90 minutes of intellectual abuse, we’re all apparently sexist jerks, as well.”
This right here is a fail. Catwoman was an awful movie, IT had nothing to do with who was cast as the lead. The story was dreadful, the costume and design were weak and the source material was so skewed that this movie literally appeared to no one.
I really like Greg Rucka as a writer but I find this really offensive. There are lots of female leads who command the box office.
And if Rucka thinks that a Jolie staring Catwoman would have been commercially and critically well recieved he is a fool.
August 25th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Mr.Rucka sir you have hit the nail exactly where it should go. You have heard my respects
August 25th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Oh wow never mind my comment I am a fool aha. I’m glad I completely misread his quote, several times. I thought he was asserting that the movie failed on the strength of Halle Berry’s performance instead of the script.
I’ll leave you alone forever now.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:06 pm
Alex, read the quote again. “…they conclude” is referencing studio execs, not Rucka’s thoughts.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:07 pm
I agree 100% with Rucka. And for all of you needing logical stories, you’re wrong. As much as I can enjoy delving into the mechanics of why a superhero can do what he does at the end of the day, Superman can fly because it’s cool that he can do so. Comics is 99% awesomeness for the sake of awesomeness, quit being overly analytical about your make-believe and enjoy it.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:12 pm
I agree with him Holly wood need to stop playing the name game produce descent films look a Jonah Hex easily the worst piece of deck ever to be made out of fantastic comic book (that includes the last air bender). and it should have been the easiest to produce of any of them what happen instead of giving us a western Story they decided to give us a comic book western so instead of some thing like High Plains Drifter we got Batman and robin the western. truth is I Rucka at least taking the high rode and leaving out any mention of White out but to be Honest that was a great film I’m sorry it did not do better.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:15 pm
I agree with rucka besides his writing is way better than waid at least that’s my opinion an I love his political pokes in his rant, go to see the comic industry is waking up.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Hahahahaha, that’s my friend GREG right there!
GO, RUCKA!
August 25th, 2011 at 3:18 pm
Maybe the movie industry should learn to come up with some more original ideas instead of taking something else and “retooling” it. Comics don’t always work on the big screen. Get over it and come up with some better ideas. But I also agree with ThePants – he should leave his political jabs out of this. That was completely unnecessary and just plain annoying.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
nice read. good points
August 25th, 2011 at 3:21 pm
First Mr Rucka takes an off-base shot at Rick Perry, then he complains about bipartisan dysfunction & rising hate.
Brilliant. I just love when people like Mr Rucka are so hell bent on squeezing in their bitter political beliefs in topics completely unrelated, that they sidetrack their own argument.
So instead of talking comics & Hollywood, we’re talking politics.
If bipartisan dysfunction & rising hate really bother you, Mr Rucka, why don’t you be the first one to lead by example and get off your “Do as I say, not as I do” high-horse.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:25 pm
@ Alex – I’m glad you re-read what Rucka said and came to your senses compared to some people who’ve commented here who’ve failed to do that.
I agree with Rucka 100%.
Full disclosure – I’m British. I hate to cause this article to descend into politics, but I can’t believe how SO many clearly American posters completely jump on what someone says and encourage an “us vs them” mentality by bringing politics into the equation when it’s unnecessary and uncalled for! I’ve not only seen it on Newsarama, I’ve seen it on so many other comics based forums I frequent.
I love the American culture and I’m planning on travelling next year. But I hope to God that my time there won’t get ruined by all this bipartisan liberal vs republican name-calling!
That’s all I’m gonna say on the matter.
August 25th, 2011 at 3:26 pm
For SpySmasher:
http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/08/is-rick-perry-as-christian-as-he-thinks-he-is/243616/
August 25th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
I think you can lament bipartisan dysfunction and still make a cheap joke about a politician. I don’t think one disallows you from doing the other. I also want to point out that you make an interesting point Radiate
August 25th, 2011 at 4:07 pm
“I agree 100% with Rucka. And for all of you needing logical stories, you’re wrong. As much as I can enjoy delving into the mechanics of why a superhero can do what he does at the end of the day, Superman can fly because it’s cool that he can do so. Comics is 99% awesomeness for the sake of awesomeness, quit being overly analytical about your make-believe and enjoy it.”
Respectfully, I don’t think this is what Rucka was talking about nor do I think it is accurate. There is a suspension of disbelief required with super-heroes, as there is in any genre, but that does not mean that it is inherently illogical.
It’s not a question of why Superman flies, but why Superman chooses to do what he does with the ability to fly. Superman’s personality dictates that he does good with his ability to fly, just as General Zod does evil. Superman does not necessarily need everyone he loves to die to be motivated to help others, he just needs other people in danger for him to help them.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:21 pm
Green Lantern was a failure because DC thinks that their heroes are more accessible if their heroes asses are kicked through the whole movie (or tv show) and then save the day ridiculously at the last second…se GL and smallville!!!!!
August 25th, 2011 at 4:35 pm
Bullshit from Rucka who wrote Superman like a fricking wuss in his run and talked crap that Superman is so good that he can’t write a story worthy of that goodness.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:39 pm
Thank you Rucka. I’ve been crabbing about this for a long, long time and I am so happy a respected writer is able to articulate it 1000% times better than I ever could.
Why did Cap and Thor succeed? Because Marvel was smart enough to have faith in the true heroism in the characters.
“Dark” is bullshit.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:41 pm
“It’s not a question of why Superman flies, but why Superman chooses to do what he does with the ability to fly. Superman’s personality dictates that he does good with his ability to fly, just as General Zod does evil. Superman does not necessarily need everyone he loves to die to be motivated to help others, he just needs other people in danger for him to help them.”
This is what Rucka is trying to point out and I agree w/ fully. One of my biggest fears before Captain America was released was they’d lean toward the more flawed Ultimate Cap. A character I find unappealing. What’s great about Cap or Supes is that they are inherently good. Not driven to heroism by tragedy, but simply because its their nature. They’d be heroes w/o the power, but w/ it they are capable of so much more.
Not every character needs something to propel their heroic attitude. As impossible as it is in the real world its nice to see that pure good guy in a movie now and then. That’s what I loved about the Cap movie even after his best friend died you didn’t see Steve pondering revenge, did he mourn yes, but he never had that moment where he ponders becoming what he fights or failing his moral code.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:45 pm
I agreed with most things sans,
“Can’t take my son to see Dark Knight”
The Dark Knight was rated PG-13 Bendis.
Were you sheltered as a child, or do you intend to censor that for your kids?
We’re talking PG-13.
That’s, “Parental Guidance, 13″
not
“Restricted 17″
I was watching Terminator 2 and First Blood on VHS well before my “13″ limit and I certainly agree that grim dark is not the way to go.
By the way, the Dark Knight wasn’t “gritty”. Just as it is stupid to parade Green Lantern’s failure on level of “gritiness” it’s equally moronic to place such condemnation on The Dark Knight.
Also the Rick Perry derp comment was just that. I can’t say I like the man either, but it was a poor choice of a metaphor to whatever the hell you were getting at.
Oh and one more thing,
Seen a trailer for the Man of Steel yet?
No?
Thank you.
August 25th, 2011 at 4:57 pm
Hmmm I could comment so many things— but I’ll summarize
I love you Greg Ruca!!!
August 25th, 2011 at 5:07 pm
I refuse to take the blame by a bunch of executives who don’t know what I like in a movie. I loved Captain America. I knew I’d love it the moment I saw the trailers. I didn’t watch Green Lantern because nothing in the trailers convinced me I’d enjoy it. If they can’t produce a good superheroine film that’s their fault, not mine.
August 25th, 2011 at 5:24 pm
Totally agree, i don want a gritty superman or a gritty green lantern, and the GL movie was not all bad, probably wrong directed only
August 25th, 2011 at 5:45 pm
@Blood and Bone – you said it yourself my friend, the Dark Knight was PG-13 as in “Parental Guidance” and as Greg Rucka is a parent, under his guidance his son won’t watch Dark Knight until he thinks it best to. PG-13 isn’t a way of automatically saying a film is child-appropriate; it merely validates that parents, at their discretion, can decide whether to take their child to watch it.
Now, whether Rucka is right or wrong to “shelter” his child or not, is not really up to you or I to discuss. I’m not a parent so I can’t possibly speak for how I’d like to treat my child yet. But you have to respect Rucka’s decision.
Like you I saw some adult films when I was young – Terminator 2 is something that stands out in my memory. And thankfully I turned out ok (I hope!). But on the flip side I was allowed to watch X-Files when I was 6 and I do remember being terrified for a good long while after watching episodes to the point I was too afraid to go to sleep! So it’s truly a delicate balancing act when deciding what to expose children to. If Rucka doesn’t want to expose his son to the Dark Knight just yet, then that’s his prerogative.
August 25th, 2011 at 5:47 pm
I don’t care if Rick Perry is a methodist or an Evangelical or a Catholic. The truth is that he is a bad example of Christianity because what he espouses flies in the face of what Jesus preached. Rick Perry is a social conservative first and a servant of Mammon second. He gives lip service to Christian ideals just like most Conservative politician because he wants VOTES.
I agree with Rucka on his position regarding Super-hero movies and I don’t think his point should be dismissed because he wrote something the right-wing religious comic fanboys don’t like to read, namely an opposing position. Maybe you should start a comic book blog on Foxnews.com?
August 25th, 2011 at 6:11 pm
I agree with Mr. Rucka on Hollywood. Well said. However I also agree that too many comic writers think their opinion matters so they stuff Left wing BS down are throats constantly. Rucka used the Perry attack to even out the reaction from Hollywood
August 25th, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Mr. Rucka where is your outrage on President Obama’s Libya involvement? Allowing Gitmo to stay open? Not pulling out of Iraq? Not pulling out of Afghanistan? Hmmmmm?
August 25th, 2011 at 6:31 pm
Why is everyone getting stuck into Greg Rucka’s politcal preference? The point he’s making is completely valid, and the political jabs are his opinion. Why’s that so hard to deal with? If you offended by his left wing views then don’t read his stories.
As for his point about Hollywood and the superhero films being executed poorly, Rucka is 100% correct in my opinion.
August 25th, 2011 at 7:14 pm
How can we make sure this gets to be seen by everyone in the world?? Especially hollywood execs
August 25th, 2011 at 7:40 pm
# John Doe Says:
August 25th, 2011 at 2:24 pm
It would take a total douchebag to dismiss Greg Rucka (or Mark Waid) because their views are “leftwing”. This is exactly the “bipartisan dysfunction” that he is talking about when we are so blinkered by the phony left-vs-right puppet show. It’s sad, and it’s one of the reasons why we’re so screwed up as a species.
agreed.
August 25th, 2011 at 8:18 pm
Green Lantern sucked. it didnt suck nearly as much as i expected it to…but seriously? why are we having this conversation around GL of all movies…surely there is a more sturdy soap-box to stand on.
August 25th, 2011 at 8:28 pm
Nope. Nope. Nope. And, nope.
The times gets EXACTLY what it craves, and, then, something ELSE comes along to inform those times there was something else they should have been craving.
That’s the dynamic of popular culture.
That’s why Lady GaGa will never be Janis Joplin, let alone Chrissie Hynde. That’s also why the CAPTAIN AMERICA movie will not be one that is revisited by future generations.
Rucka is right, and he is wrong, and, as usual, you’d be a fool to go on his word as to which is which.
But, whatever, it’s the internet — say whatever dumb stuff you want to say.
August 25th, 2011 at 8:42 pm
Some commenters “can’t understand” what all the fuss over Rucka’s attempted smear of Rick Perry is about.
The reason might be that it was a total lie intended to damage a man’s reputation.
It seems that pointing out that FACT makes one an idiot, a bigot, a non-Christian, an extremist, and any number of other things.
Note to all: Stop pointing out blatant lies! Accept what your liberal overlords tell you and do not question it! Save your questions for Conservatives, who are always wrong.
August 25th, 2011 at 8:45 pm
lol it’s funny really while Cap, thor, and x men 1st class barely made 200mil in U.S BO unlike Nolan’s Batman franchise, iron man, and Spiderman who all passed 200 mil in U.S only. so yeah CBM quality is declining
August 25th, 2011 at 9:34 pm
Realism: Batman jumps above a roof, falls, and breaks his neck.
People, stop confusing realism with believability.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:50 pm
Do I want the next Green Lantern or Superman movie to be dark and brooding? Not really. My ideal versions of both of them involve lots of wonder, adventure, and selfless heroism more in the vein of the recent Captain America movie – which is the first movie in a long time that managed to get me to not only relate to a character, but to LOOK UP TO a character. Sometimes being able to respect a character’s actions works just as well as the ability to pity a character’s tragedies.
That said, it’s not entirely impossible for “gritty” takes on those films to be pulled off well. Improbable certainly, but not impossible. If I heard Duncan Jones was doing Green Lantern and Ridley Scott was doing Superman… wow, I think I kind of just blew my own mind there.
August 25th, 2011 at 9:54 pm
I just don’t understand why people reproach Rucka for sharing his political leanings in the same article as his rant against Hollywood. Both are likely informed from the same philosophies and help me understand his perspective and values better. I DO understand that knowing a creator’s political leanings might be opposed to yours can be hard to get over but… get over it.
And, I hate when people say things like “too many comic writers think their opinion matters so they stuff Left wing BS down are throats constantly.” Kinda the point of America’s freedom of speech and press and all that jazz is that all comic book creators, actors, Newsarama posters, etc. “matters” when it comes to determining the course of US politics. It ain’t really public discourse when your only argument is to just keep telling the other side to shut up.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:21 pm
Wow. A LOT of people missed the mark of what Greg said. Kudos on your reading comprehension skills.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:25 pm
Sorry, I guess I just like my characters to have some depth. Bale’s Batman is a more complex character than Superman. Batman fights crime because it’s the right thing to do and he wants to help people but he also has some psychological baggage that forces him to question his own motives. Is his desire to punish criminals just a displaced quest for revenge against the man who killed his parents? Even if that is the case isn’t it good that he’s directing his anger into something that helps others? Does his willingness to cross certain boundaries make him as bad as the criminals he hunts, or a necessary countermeasure to villains who respect no boundaries? There are some layers for the writers to work with.
Superman, on the other hand, fights crime because it’s the right thing to do and he wants to help people… And that’s it. Just the one layer. He’s the “good” counterpoint to the archetypal “mustache twirling villain” who’s only motivation is to hurt people and be evil for the sake of evil. If that’s the antithesis of “dark” I’ll take more “dark” movies please.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:26 pm
To MC
Thanks for the link! Now that I read that Perry is heartless in a completely unbiased source, Atlantic magazine web site, I totally agree.
Let’s save time! Next time just give me a link directly to the Democratic Party’s web site. Cut out the middle man!
Matty reminds us about “America’s freedom of speech.” His idea of “free speech” is bashing conservatives. If “free speech” bashes or even criticizes liberals, then it’s suddenly deemed “hate speech.” And in Matty’s mind it SHOULD be, seeing as how all conservatives are perpetually wrong and basically ignorant Nazi-like morons. Well, at least he’s open minded. Not.
August 25th, 2011 at 10:56 pm
Those of you on the Left still refuse to answer…Why has President Obama involved the US in Libya? Why is Gitmo still open? Why has he not stopped the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? Could it be that their are certain “people” higher up in this world who control both parties? Say Bilderberg? Who Obama and Perry are both members of.
August 25th, 2011 at 11:29 pm
Um, dude SpySmasher, you are overreacting and over-interpreting. I didn’t bash conservatives but Rucka might have done. Never said a word about hate speech, I am not concerned about protecting ‘liberals’ from criticism, nor do I think conservatives are perpetually wrong Nazis. You are not very good at mind reading. I recommend first reading and understanding the lines before attempting to read between them.
The only things I’ve stated is that I don’t mind hearing Rucka talk about his politics in the same breath as comics. I don’t mind when Dixon or Willingham share more conservative perspectives either. I’ll admit that sometimes Peter David’s stuff seems a little too heavy handed. I was raised in a conservative religious family and our dinner time was mostly spent talking about issues, philosophies, and values. No, I don’t think all Christians, right-wings, and/or conservatives are close-minded because it was two of them that raised me with the value of listening to a person fully before launching an attack.
August 26th, 2011 at 3:34 am
I agree with Greg. I think he makes some excellent points.
August 26th, 2011 at 6:07 am
SpySmasher, Rucka criticized one political figure. If you knew nothing about Rucka, he could be a staunch Republican who sees this one man as representative of what’s wrong with the Republican party.
Point is, it’s not a political statement. He just doesn’t like Rick Perry.
And that’s okay.
Let’s move on.
August 26th, 2011 at 7:15 am
Aside from the “I VOTE demOCraT fTW” part in the beginning, he’s dead on. That being said, mentioning bipartisan dysfunction while slamming one side of the political spectrum is kind of hypocritical. Still, he’s dead on about Hollywood. DEAD.ON.
August 26th, 2011 at 7:52 am
This.
Greg Rucka is awesome and has nailed this one to the wall.
I try to live my life in a genuinely good and honest way.
All the time, I get people who don’t believe I could possibly actually BE that way, so I can relate very well to the cynicism tied to the inherent goodness of superheroes.
I defend my altruistic comic books just as sincerely.
I definitely want more movies like Cap, less movies like GL.
However, was anyone REALLY under the impression that warner brothers actually knows what to do with their non-top-tier comics properties?
I’m betting, no.
Also, almost everyone on this board who’s disagreed with what Rucka wrote is taking half his points the wrong way or out of context. Everyone go back to your SAT prep and work on your critical reading skills.
Seriously.
I guess that’s the internet for you…
August 26th, 2011 at 8:37 am
As to GL needing to be “more gritty,” I don’t know. In over-simplified, binary Hollywoodland, “gritty” may just mean “not campy.” If that’s the case, a “more gritty” GL may be a good thing. If fans can get a well thought out script that treats the material seriously, they won’t care what Hollywood executives call it.
August 26th, 2011 at 9:09 am
I agree with Mr. Rucka 100%. Do I need to say “this” or can it be implied?
A lot of the problem can also be traced back to the success of The Dark Knight. Studios love formulas. If one is great, then 100 more is even better.
WB is looking at TDK and saying “it made a billion dollars, while Green Lantern lost money. TDK was dark and gritty, while GL wasn’t. Superman Returns failed and it wasn’t dark and gritty either. So that must be the answer. We’ll make both Superman and GL2 dark and gritty.” And then some lower exec says, “but sir, Superman isn’t dark and gritty.” To which the exec replies, “you’re fired.”
This is my main concern going into the new Superman movie (lack of red trunks aside). TDK succeeded because there were quality directors, actors and writers on the project.
Is it the best representation of Batman? No and far from it. Batman is a superhero. Nolan’s Batman is a hero, not a superhero. There’s no “super” to be found in Nolan’s Bat-verse. It’s really just Bruce Wayne vs. the mob. I would hope all the people in charge know and understand the distinction between Batman and Superman, but they don’t look at it like that.
And he’s right about Rick Perry too.
August 26th, 2011 at 9:36 am
WB just needs to not make another GL movie. Just because the GL comics have been really popular the last couple of years, they figured a GL movie would be popular with the non-comic reading, movie-going public?
Just because Ironman was a relative unknown that worked out really well doesn’t mean that Green Lantern will. Personally, I think both Flash and Aquaman have a better chance than GL in the theaters.
August 26th, 2011 at 9:51 am
I love this line from Matty Macomber:
“And, I hate when people say things like ‘too many comic writers think their opinion matters so they stuff Left wing BS down are throats constantly.’”
I couldn’t agree more. For every comic writer who “stuff[s] Left wing BS down [readers'] throats constantly,” there are usually a considerable number of reactionaries who think THEIR opinions matter so they stuff RIGHT-wing BS down readers’ throats.
To suggest that comic writers are arrogant because they make politicized statements is hypocritical because comments sections like these let the other side slam said comic writers are apparently presuming that THEIR opinions are equally important.
I also think it says something that so many people immediately jump on whatever they see as politics-related statements over which they can express outrage. Is this what US culture is all about now?
August 26th, 2011 at 10:29 am
Speaking as a Texan, Rick Perry does suck the big donkey dong.
August 26th, 2011 at 10:49 am
Can’t I read an article anywhere that doesn’t mention anything about a presidental candidate, or obvious pandering to a political affiliation?
He wants to talk about escapism and then throws in something that negates the subject matter at hand. Not only that, the comment derail that has occurred. Describe reasons why people enjoy escapism, but don’t stoke the fire.
That said, he is right about the whole gritty thing. I just wish creators would leave politics at the door when interviewing or blogging about something that has nothing to do with the point they are trying to get across.
August 26th, 2011 at 11:22 am
A complain about “gritty” from Greg Rucka.
I guess that Wonder Woman snapping necks of tied up villains is Now something a 11 year old can go see, if adapted as a movie.
August 26th, 2011 at 11:43 am
It ALL boils down to fidelity to the source material. Bryan Singer was faithful to the essential spirit of the X-men but failed to realize that the ultimate boy scout, Clark FREAKIN Kent, would NEVER have unprotected one-time sex with the woman he loved and leave her with a son, NO MATTER THE COSMIC EMERGENCY!!! Bruce Banner LOOKS like Ed Norton and not like Eric Bana, who is very similar to a male model (a Good actor, but NOT right for Banner!). Respecting the mood and intent of the original material is EVERYTHING! Iron Man’s origin in Vietnam is one of the most dated and cumbersome in today’s comics world… and yet the movie performed BRILLIANTLY by simply transplanting it into today’s desert conflicts! If you change Catwoman’s race, profession AND identity… don’t be freakin’ surprised, you stupid, mouth-breathin’, knuckle-draggin, bean-counting IDIOTS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
August 26th, 2011 at 12:30 pm
The Fool said,
“Point is, it’s not a political statement. He just doesn’t like Rick Perry.”
The Fool is not so foolish after all. He hit the nail on the head!
August 26th, 2011 at 12:59 pm
Oh, yes, nice comment from Greg Rucka.
I agree, “Cynicism is not maturity”.
And “There is a time and a place for gritty.”
I’d feel even better about the comment if Rucka hadn’t been one of the writers who took happy, funny, NOT GRITTY Ted Kord, CYNICALLY wrote other heroes horribly out of character to make him the pariah of the DCU, and then — in a SEVERELY GRITTY manner — had him graphically shot in the head.
By his previously NOT GRITTY friend Max Lord, who was CYNICALLY mischaracterized as being a hero-hating villain for all their happy, funny years together in the Justice League International.
Indeed, “Cynicism is not maturity”.
And hooray for “better storytelling, clearer motivation, purer intention.”
Except, of course, when Greg Rucka and his pals gotta make Ted dead.
In THAT case, anything goes!!
Like Superman, Ted Kord, Max Lord, and the rest of the JLI are many things. Gritty they are not, something that YOU, Greg Rucka, and your erstwhile DC Comics pals certainly did NOT understand.
You’ve made clear your wish to be part of the solution to unnecessary grittiness, sir.
That’s good.
Therefore, in the future, make sure you aren’t part of the problem.
August 26th, 2011 at 4:02 pm
This conversation clearly shows that everybody can look at the same thing and each see something different, and I think that’s part of the point. Unfortunately, the studios keep seeing the wrong message.
The studio suits saw Batman as a succesful movie and they saw it as a “gritty” movie, therefore, if the G.L. movie failed it must have been because it was not gritty enough.
If Warner Brothers has any brains it will hire the marketing guys that Disney just fired from Marvel because in my opinion at least 50% of the reason for G.L.’s failure at the box office was because the movie was marketed so badly that people had decided long before the movie came out that they weren’t going to see it and if there’s one thing the Marvel guys know, it’s marketing!
August 26th, 2011 at 4:25 pm
Man, conservatives sure are whiny little crybabies.
August 26th, 2011 at 4:55 pm
Sure, Disney execs fired an excellent marketing team but Warner would do better to spend their money on writers before they think of marketing. And I agree with the poster who mentioned that it was all Groff Johns’s fault. Why hire the actor who did the brash, confident Deadpool to interpret a loser Hal Jordan. Jordan is Superman without Clark Kent not Peter Parker.
August 26th, 2011 at 8:21 pm
I, for one, would like to commend the movie studios for doing such a good job with the Marvel/DC properties. Three out of the four movies they released this summer were box office hits AND popular with the critics. It’s rare for any film genre to be able to attain such a consistent level of quality. For exaple, I certainly don’t think anywhere close to three quarters of horror movies are worth seeing. The executives at Fox deserve credit for X-Men First Class. While the fan community was almost universally decrying the film and demanding a more conserative interpretation of the source material the studios were standing behind the director’s creative vision and allowing the creative freedom to make the movie he wanted to make. The end result was such an unqualified success that it even won over the hardcore fans who protested its creation to begin with. Thank you Hollywood movie producers, for being open minded and willing to take risks with your superhero movies.
August 26th, 2011 at 9:01 pm
Waaaa! Liberalism has bankrupted America and brought this country to the brink of disaster. Waaaa! ObamaCare will be the final nail in the coffin. Waaaa! Youth unemployment is at an all-time high. Waaa! A majority think we are headed in the wrong direction, and that their children will NOT have it better than they did. Waaaa!
Signed, a whiny conservative who has a lot to whine ABOUT.
August 26th, 2011 at 9:19 pm
This is rather pathetic , for year this place used to be a safe haven for comics based discussions , even if most of them pointed toward negative opinions .
Now you can’t comment on anything bugt blog pages , unless your lurk on crap like facebook …
And even worse most of those blog pages are now mostly about movies , and irrelevant crap like left wing/right wing extremism . Especially when not every reader is even american .
Oh well , i guess i’m just done , fight away over Obama as you will … i’ll just read the comics
August 27th, 2011 at 6:29 am
Weird political analogy, I could have thought of a more apt one considering the current blame-game mentality in DC.
August 27th, 2011 at 12:07 pm
His name is SpySmasher .. His mission is to ferret out evils that us regular citizens arent smart enough to see .. we are sheep, he alone is his own master .. its black and white, good and evil, right and wrong .. you are either with or against .. there is ONLY two sides to this story
August 27th, 2011 at 2:49 pm
And also, he’s a whiny little crybaby.
August 27th, 2011 at 6:01 pm
That Greg Rucka, he’s a smart cookie.
August 28th, 2011 at 6:15 am
“If someone is having trouble coping with the political realities facing him today, reading or viewing escapist material that has pure heroes acting purely won’t let him escape that trouble, even while he’s watching it. He’d be better off getting himself involved in politics and fighting what he opposes. SRS”
post that everywhere please
August 28th, 2011 at 12:03 pm
I think you’re all spending way too much posting and would benefit by actually reading more of Mr. Rucka’s work.
August 28th, 2011 at 9:31 pm
People often forget that Batman wasn’t gritty either. Not until Miller got a hold of him.
And the Nolan’s Batman movies are a shadow of the books that Miller wrote. To top it off, Christian Bale just isn’t that great. He ruins it with that stupid, overly dramatic and unconvincing voice he does as Batman.
In most cases I say he’s a talented actor but he seems to struggle with the Batman role and finding a balance between the realism and the comicky aspects. Like in Burton’s films, he didn’t compartmentalize either and what we got was a movie that looked awesome stylistically and just plain worked, a great mix of both worlds.
Now, that said, if it weren’t for the voice thing, I think Bale would make a MUCH better Batman than Keaton. But I also liked Val Kilmer’s Batman more than Keaton’s. His movies weren’t as good as Keaton’s, but I thought he suited the role better.
I just felt like Burton had more of a grasp of the comics and he wasn’t afraid to to convey aesthetics and thoughts that wouldn’t normally translate well onto the big screen – But he managed to do it perfectly. This fact is self evident in that the movie(s) still looks good today, it still holds up.
August 29th, 2011 at 1:48 am
I’ve always wondered why someone being noble is considered unrealistic.
Yes, gritty is real. But it’s not the only thing that’s real.
If you know where to look, there are people everywhere in all walks of life doing the right thing for virtue’s sake. I’ve read stories on cops, firemen, soldiers, humanitarians…who are all dedicated to doing the right thing. And even the corporate world has its own share of noble do-gooders. Like that Japanese CEO who gave up his pay to save everyone on his company from being fired during the recession.
August 29th, 2011 at 8:01 am
Just for the record, both conservetives AND liberals are whiney and intent on stiffling the other guy’s opinion. Freedom of speech as long as you agree with me. Now as for Rucka’s views on Hollywood, which was the intent of this article, I must agree.
August 29th, 2011 at 7:59 pm
I completely agree. ‘Dark’ is not some sort of panacea. The only reason Warner’s is on it’s ‘dark superhero’ kick is because The Dark Knight made a billion bucks, pre-3D fad. I’m also sick of comics that consider ‘boy scout’ to be some sort of insult instead of a high compliment.
August 30th, 2011 at 5:02 pm
This.
September 5th, 2011 at 2:49 am
“People often forget that Batman wasn’t gritty either. Not until Miller got a hold of him. ”
Are you kidding? In the first ever Batman comic he shoots a jewel thief in the face!
September 12th, 2011 at 11:28 pm
Superhero comics and movies shouldn’t be gritty, they should be made for kids. They should extoll the virtues we prize (strength, valor, ingenuity) by contrasting against outlandish examples of the villainy we most despise. The moral lessons should be apparent (though not necessarily obvious or called out) and easy for kid readers to understand. They should inspire kids to want to be virtuous like their heroes.
Adults don’t need that sort of inspiration, we’ve had all our lives to learn the value of virtue from increasingly sophisticated storytelling input. We’re better served as adults being inspired by true-life stories of heroism, because that sort of thing shows us how true heroism is still possible. That said, we don’t need superhero comics to be written up to our level of gritty sophistication. All that does is alienate the people whom superhero comics are best suited and able to inspire.
Maybe I think too much about things I have no control over.
–Carl.
November 9th, 2011 at 7:03 am
What level of alcohol content does Kids Beer have?
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