So, here’s a page from next week’s Fear Itself #5 (Spoilers, so it’s under the jump):
(Image via CBR’s preview of the issue, in case you’re wondering.)
Am I the only person who read that and thought “There’s no way Thor would ever say anything like ‘You were always a giant pain in the ass‘”? It’s perhaps a fannish concern, the whole idea of consistent “voices” for characters – especially as even superhero comics become more and more creator-led, and series become remembered for specific creators’ runs as opposed to individual stories or the like – but… “Giant pain in the ass”? From Thor? Really?
I shouldn’t be surprised, I guess; one of the drawbacks of writers with strong individual voices like Brian Michael Bendis, Mark Millar and now Matt Fraction is that their characters tend to have very similar dialogue; re-read something like Civil War and it’s easy to imagine Cap and Iron Man’s dialogue swapped out without too much difficulty (It’s all the “sweetheart”s), for example. But what gets lost in that stylized dialogue (which can be a lot of fun) is the idea that these characters have particular personalities that set them apart from each other – For me, Iron Man would call someone a pain in the ass, and maybe even Cap, but Thor would be the one who would just do either a monologue about what evil this particular creature is, or do a “Have at thee” and hit them. The idea that Asgardians use “ass” in general seems off, and somehow… beneath them, if that doesn’t sound too weird for a fictional character and fictional race.
I shouldn’t be bothered by it, of course; it’s a gag line – Not Thor’s first, in Fear Itself; #4 opened with one, as well – that’s essentially throwaway and there purely to make Thor seem even more badass than he would otherwise. But I’m not sure if it’s not a gag at the cost of the character. Am I just being ridiculously old-fashioned here?
August 4th, 2011 at 12:48 pm
Oh, I totally agree – this drives me crazy. This example may JUST pass, if it was read by Chris Hemsworth in a pompous, Asgardian voice to create a humourous juxtaposition, but without that, it just jars. But Bendis is the worse offender, by far: as far back as Avengers Disassembled, he had Dr. Strange, a character who’s been around for 40 years, suddenly talking like a Sopranos extra. Painful.
And the worse part is that it diminishes, and distracts from a really powerful scene (did he really just kill the Thing?) by being so obtrusive. Also, I’d rather be talking about Immonens art, which looks fantastic. Loving all that Kirby Crackle.
August 4th, 2011 at 12:56 pm
That’s just terrible writing all around, but I’d put the blame on the lack of editorial standards regarding such things at Marvel. There’s apparently no effort made to keep characterization remotely consistent (Tony Stark in Civil War, anyone?) but you’d think simple aesthetics would lead anyone with half a brain to say “Uh, Matt, maybe something less stupid here? And something Thor might actually say? Read a Walt Simonson book if you don’t have a handle on his character.”
August 4th, 2011 at 1:32 pm
I remember some discussion during Matt Fraction’s first or second issue of Thor (#615 or #616) about Thor having said ‘Shut up.’ to another character. I know it’s something I personally thought stood out as an odd bit of dialogue for the character and this seems to be in the same vein.
August 4th, 2011 at 1:40 pm
I have never really thought Bendis provided “strong individual voices” since every voice sounds the same…
August 4th, 2011 at 1:47 pm
Yeah, it’s the thing that first started driving me away from the books Bendis writes. I agree with Aaron, though: this is entirely the editor’s fault. But comics don’t have editors these days so much as product managers.
I just don’t understand how hard it would be for an editor to say “hey, this is out of character” and have the writer change the dialogue. Seems like that used to happen all the time.
August 4th, 2011 at 2:16 pm
I agree 100% with this post. I am no writer, but here goes:
Thor (on taking down the Thing):
“I am sorry friend Thing, but thoust left me no choice”
Thor (on taking on Hulk next):
“Hulk, thou truly are a warrior born, but for too long thy power hast been too easily corrupted.”
“‘Tis time for thou to taste the true might of Mjöllnir”
August 4th, 2011 at 2:21 pm
Maybe he shouldn’t say that, but what are proper Asgardian curse words, anyway? Also, as a thinking being, isn’t Thor able to Pick up Earth phrases?
August 4th, 2011 at 2:31 pm
As someone who always found the pseudo-Shakespearean lingo of Asgard dull, this is a slight improvement.
But it’s still pretty bland.
August 4th, 2011 at 3:02 pm
This is one of the main reasons I don’t read hardly any Marvel comics anymore. The current crop of “writers” are barely above High School Creative Writing 101 level. Fraction and especially Bendis and Millar are some of the most boring one note writers I’ve ever read.
I wish they’d stay the hell away from the few characters that I’m still following.
August 4th, 2011 at 3:33 pm
… is Ever-Loving Thing supposed to be dead now? Can anyone even tell? Did I miss a USA Today article?
August 4th, 2011 at 3:49 pm
I have to say, it doesn’t bother me. I hate when Thor’s speech gets too Shakespearean, so things which soften his lines appeal to me. Sure, the line may be a little too informal, but it’s better than the “Have at thee, varlet” type line he’s been saddled with for the last 50 years.
August 4th, 2011 at 5:35 pm
Just looking at that example page makes me think the Thing just became entirely expendable as a character and a threat just so Thor can spout the “awesome dialogue!”
August 4th, 2011 at 8:41 pm
I have no problem ditching the Shakespearean-esque dialogue for simply a “Higher” English, but “a giant pain in the ass” isn’t something Thor, as published from the 60s through the 2000s would say. At least the brawl isn’t accompanied by panels of talking heads explaining how they feel about when Thor fought the Thing and Hulk and “a thing turned into a thing.”
August 5th, 2011 at 4:49 am
I say less literate dialogue suits a less literate audience, and the lowest common denominator shall lead them!
August 5th, 2011 at 7:34 am
Seriously?!? That’s the BEST writing/editing Marvel can offer?!? Between that mess and DC’s ridiculous (not to mentioned “biased”.. nice to see how stuff that Geoff Johns was involved with not being affected by the ‘Flashboot’ reboot. FAIL!) reboot, it makes me glad to say I’ve given up on superhero comics, instead giving my money to the independents, because at least they’re trying to make comics still be fun and worth the money.
August 5th, 2011 at 10:22 am
Ha ha, some of you guys make me laugh.
Then make me want to cry.
–J.
August 5th, 2011 at 10:25 am
“Thy has always remained a pain in mine ass-eth.”
There. Fixed for continuity’s sake so some of you Nancies can sleep easier tonight.
–J.
August 5th, 2011 at 1:35 pm
Y’know, I just read the Avengers issue about Jan’s funeral after Secret War (I know, I’m a bit behind), where Hank is ragging on Tony at the funeral, and then Thor steps in with some well-considered words. That was Bendis writing Thor and it “sounded” great: sophisticated without being faux-Shakespeare (which I like, but I know wears on others). Bendis, I say. But this? No. Did Fraction actually write that line and say to himself, “yeah, THAT’S good.”
August 5th, 2011 at 2:14 pm
yeah I can’t even read Avengers because of Bendis “character voices” kinda put me of Ultimate Spidey and the rest of his work
August 5th, 2011 at 7:53 pm
I thought it was brilliant! Thor got rid of the pseudo Shakespeare-talk ages ago which felt very outdated anyway. His dialogue is now more nuanced (similar to how Hercules talks these days) and more contemporary. Thor and Hulk have always had an antagonistic relationship in the past, so for me, the line just makes perfect sense for the character to say. It’s an awesome line and a great scene, right up there with “Ultron, we would have words with thee.” (from the Busiek/Perez Avengers era). I haven’t been sold on the Fear Itself mini-series since it started but I think I’m now going to get the hardcover when it does come out.
August 5th, 2011 at 8:35 pm
I’m fine with this version of Thor that talks like a real person. If you actually like the whole campy faux-Shakespeare style of speech I recommend picking up a copy of Loeb’s “Ultimates 3″
August 6th, 2011 at 7:21 am
Yeah, this bugs me. I guess I just don’t get all the people who sit around thinking about how unrealistic it is that a character who is a living god and doubles as a superhero, who shoots magical lightning out of a metal hammer and fights dragons, has a slightly unusual speaking pattern. Now I realize that that isn’t a completely fair comparison, but Thor’s semi-medieval speech is designed to make him sound otherworldly and anachronistic. I’ve never had a problem with it and don’t really get why others do. Realism, frankly, shouldn’t be a factor, not the least because Marvel Thor isn’t anything like the mythological Thor, who also isn’t real. I want Thor to sound noble and alien. Even if a writer doesn’t want to use thee and thou (though really, why would you want to take away such a unique voice for a hero?), he should sound more proper and refined than your average person. I hope we don’t get to the point where Thor is calling people “Bro” or the like.
August 8th, 2011 at 11:17 am
“Hey Ultron, bro…hey, man. We should, like, talk about something, dude.”
August 8th, 2011 at 8:06 pm
Civil War was almost unreadable. Millar has a nack for making every Marvel character that isn’t Spider-Man have the same snarky tone. One of the biggest irritations for me (which reading on the boards seemed to only affect me) was having Reed Richards, genius and academic scholar, respond a question with “yeah”. Having a creative voice as a writer should not maake allowing Reed Richards say “yeah” in a serious context good writing.
And I remember one issue of Secret Invasion when “Guys! (as in to call attention to others) was uttered three different times in the space of two pages or something. Seriously, editing please?
August 9th, 2011 at 11:45 am
Yet another reason right now (besides the Kirby lawsuit) that I’m pretty much through with Marvel. The distinctive voices of characters like Thor and the Hulk used to be part of the fun in Marvel. Now everything is undifferentiated and boring Take note, current Marvel head writers: this is how it’s done. (To be fair, not everyone at Marvel right now is bad with that; Fred Van Lente and Greg Pak do a good job with Hercules’s voice, for instance.)
August 12th, 2011 at 12:14 pm
This goes back to Secret Wars when Jim Shooter, who should have been able to write everyone in character, butchered the X-Men. I was 11 and it stuck out to me. It probably had alot to do with how distinct Chris Claremont had made the X-Men at that point as well. Marvel’s writers write the characters to suit their stories nowadays. I started dropping books when Tom Brevoort said that the characters that are in the movies would probably be written in their movie voices nowadays.