In his weekly “Talk To The Hat” interview at Comic Book Resources, Tom Brevoort spilled some beans about Avengers projects that never were, including this one:
The third one I can remember — and at least two different people pitched this at two different times — was an idea that never got as far as an official title, but it was essentially “Black Avengers.” It was “Let’s put all the African or African-American heroes together on a team for an adventure,” and in those cases too, there was nothing about the idea beyond “It’s a bunch of super heroes together” that said “Avengers” beyond the fact that “Avengers” is a term that’s salable. I think there’s something very specific about what “Avengers” means to the Marvel Universe. They’re the varsity. They’re the A-list. They’re the Man. They’re not about being super heroes because of demographics or ethnicity. They stand for something specific and occupy a certain role. If you don’t have some degree of that, then it doesn’t feel like Avengers.
Firstly, way to accidentally mix “We passed on a Black Avengers book twice” with “The Avengers are the Man.” Secondly, I can’t work out whether “Black Avengers” is a terrible idea, or a great one. It depends on the creative team and the story, I guess; I admit that I’d at least be curious enough to pick up the first issue if Priest were writing it (I wonder if one of the “two different times” the idea was pitched was the book that became Priest’s The Crew? Am I misremembering that he was upset that forces within Marvel thought it was “a black book” despite only one of the leads being black?). Is this just liberal white guilt talking, or is there actually something weirdly racist about “Black Avengers” as a concept for a series?
April 25th, 2011 at 4:19 pm
To pick a nit, actually, three of the four leads in the Crew were Black.
Josiah X, the son of the Black Captain America Isaiah Bradley from the Truth and Young Avenger Patriot’s uncle, was Black. James “Rhodey” Rhodes, AKA War Machine is Black, and Kasper Cole, once Black Panther’s stand-in and working as the White Tiger in the Crew, was the son of Black man and Jewish woman, and though light skinned, was still a Black man.
Junta, AKA Danny Vincent, was Latino, not Black, but he was the only member of the team who wasn’t.
I’m not trying to trivialize the team or book, I was a huge fan of the title, but many more than one of the books leads was Black.
April 25th, 2011 at 5:14 pm
yeah, black avengers would be awesome. i guess those guys above (some of ‘em, anyway) luke cage, bro voodoo, falcon. who are the black woman marvel heroes? storm, and, uh, i’m spacing.
then they could move on to other groups. jewish avengers. lesbian avengers. “special” avengers (retards).
April 25th, 2011 at 6:13 pm
Reggie Hudlin basically did that in an arc of Black Panther, having T’Challa team up with Luke Cage, Brother Voodoo, Misty Knight and (I think) Monica Rambeau.
April 25th, 2011 at 7:33 pm
Is it racist? Valid question, but I’d say no.
Unless the concept was somehow stereotypical (a street-level, urban team takes on drug lords and gangs, for instance), or they actually called it the Black Avengers, I think it can just be filed under “Cool Ideas”.
What is kinda racist is that a book featuring a team of black Avengers would likely be regarded as a novelty or niche title, but it’s perfectly fine that there’s only one person of color (out of 20-plus heroes) on the three current Avengers teams.
April 25th, 2011 at 7:42 pm
P.S. In re-reading Breevoort’s “A-list”-”varsity”-”the man” justification for not going ahead with the book, he’s basically just reiterating his earlier “whenever your leads are white American males, you’ve got a better chance of reaching more people overall” explanation, isn’t he?
I thought it was crap then, and I think it’s crap now.
April 25th, 2011 at 8:55 pm
Yeah, Hudlin even had a character tell T’Challa if and whenever he wanted to get everyone together and lead a Black Avengers, they’d sign up. I THINK Blade was in there somewhere too, but I haven’t reread those books for a while. Anyway, I was reading Black Panther at the time and thought it would have been a great idea at the time.
(By the way, Young Avengers? Avengers Academy? Avengers: The Initiative? Secret Avengers? I’m pretty sure the name “Avengers” isn’t any more special than, say, putting “X” in the title of a superteam book at this point).
April 26th, 2011 at 7:34 am
@TomBrevoort on an all-black Avengers: All-white superhero teams are happenstance; all-black teams are contrived. #CovertRacism
From TomBrevoort: @SonofBaldwin No, an all-black Avengers team is contrived. Nothing more, nothing less.
@TomBrevoort If an all-black Avengers team is contrived, why isn’t an all-white Avengers team contrived?
@TomBrevoort It’s no less racist to believe all-white is “natural” or “default.” Passive racism is still racism.
@TomBrevoort White supremacy may contradict me, but diversity isn’t 5 white guys, 1 black guy, and 1 woman.
@TomBrevoort sees nothing wrong with an all-white team. But a bunch of blacks joining together to do good is unbelievable. #Gotcha
April 26th, 2011 at 8:09 am
Respectfully, no, that’s not true.
I have, off the top of my head, three distinct and workable ways an all-black Avengers team is a viable commodity. Outside of hockey (and not even there always) there’s no such thing as an all-white team. Not cops. Not the army. not the fire department. not the post office. not NASA. not the FBI. Not the CIA. not even the white house.
I’m not promoting the idea or discrediting the idea of an all-black Avengers team but the FACT is, any good writer can make ANY story work if the desire is there to do so. Hiding behind the smokescreen of “Well, minority groupings are contrived, white is the default” is not intellectually or, frankly, creatively sound.
Either find another, better, argument to make or start producing teams with more brown and “yellow” faces on them. Y’know, like it happens in the real world.
April 26th, 2011 at 9:37 am
Son of Baldwin and Geoffrey Thorne: You are spot on!
April 26th, 2011 at 10:50 am
I am not sure if I would buy a Black Avengers book, it would depend on the book itself and the characters involved and more than anything else the creative team.
I think its the same for almost anybody. Its the same for me for any book I go to buy, I will buy JLGL because it has booster gold in it and was initially written by Giffen. I wont buy Gotham City Sirens because I dont care about the characters even though I love Dini.
That being said his core argument of a All Black super hero team feeling contrived has some merit.
Its the same merit though that also forces the an all asian team or any other minority in the super hero world feel contrived.
There are just so few black/asian/latino/ super heros.
The fact that there are literally hundreds of white super heroes in the marvel universe and unfortunately, due to racism being very apparent at a time when marvel was being created there arent that many Viable black ones. Look at Luke Cage, even he started as a complete stereo type.
If I were making a a Avengers team of all black super heroes I would have:
War Machine as leader (cage already leads one doesnt need to lead two)
Luke Cage
Blade
Cloak
Bishop
Night Thrasher
Black Panther
Dr Voodoo or whatever name he is going by right now, that is a perfectly viable line up for a Avengers book with 7 quality characters and I am sure there are many more Black characters that I am not thinking of you could substitute in without an issue but the fact of the matter is most of them do not (not by there own fault) have the following or the back story fleshed out enough to carry the book. That being said, the right creative team can carry anything.
What Tom said still somewhat stands If you look at the fact that according to comic vines ultimate list of super heroes and villains (and I am sure in this case bit characters) Marvel has 13,298 characters. According to Wiki pedias list or black super heroes (had no idea such a list existed) there are give or take about 100 or so (104 by my count but i could be off by 1 or 2) black super heroes.
So even if 10,000 of those characters are bit, villains, or otherwise not counted that still means that 100 of the 3298 super heroes are black. (some of which are bit characters) which is give or take 3% of marvels Hero population in this sample.
So no its not shocking when there is a whole team of white heroes or of mainly white heroes just due to the sheer numbers of it.
Marvel should be able to do better, contrived or not a Black Avengers or what I would prefer a Minority Avengers with Iron Fist as their token white guy (if you have luke cage you should have iron fist its too good a pair to pass up as a package deal) would allow them to elevate some of the more obscure Minority heroes to a much higher status, whats the worst that happens the book fails and you cancel it?
April 26th, 2011 at 1:54 pm
I’m sick of hearing excuses about “tokenism” or being “forced.” Show me any major cultural change that’s happened with some force. Heck, nobody had a problem with the team THE ORDER, who were based in California (Hollywood, to be exact), being an All-White team. That’s not “forced”? I mean, it’s not like there are that many Blacks, Hispanics, and Asians in California…
Anyway, I remember also thinking of a “Black Avengers” team when Marvel started that “50 State Initiative” thing after Civil War. They could easily set a team in some predominatly Black city, and have a team made of mostly Black heroes. And the theme is that they’re called “The Black Avengers” by the local press, even though they’re officially named something else, who don’t take them seriously because they’re mostly Black. So they have to fight crime and fight public perception. There’s other ways to do it too, which would seem “organic.” Like Black Panther and Storm forming an international team of Avengers, as a counter to the possible global power imbalance of America’s registered heroes, which would have Black and other ethnic heroes from around the Globe. All it takes is a little imagination, which you would think would be plentiful @ the House of Ideas.
But it’s all acedemic anyway. I’ve been reading comics for 30 years. I’ve given up on the idea that we’ll ever see real divesity from the mainstream comic-book industry.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:01 pm
What makes “non-white” teams “contrived” is nothing more than the view that a lot of otherwise very nice white people have that they are the baseline and majority group in humankind.
That is a false notion and, as with all false notions, is not born out by reality.
In comics simply having two non-whites on a team (not related by blood or marriage) creating loud whining in the “fan” community that the creators are pandering and indulging in tokenism.
It’s crap. Total racist crap. People don’t like that label hung on them but are completely unwilling to do anything to obviate the facts that make the label stick. Now, granted, MARVEL’s racial inclusion and gender inclusion policy makes DC look like the KKK, they still have a lot more work to do across the board.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:12 pm
“creates,” not “creating.”
typo.
sorry.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:28 pm
Geoff,
Someone trotted out the old “If you selected randomly from a group of comic book heroes from Marvel or DC, by the nature of how many white male heroes there are, you’re likely to get more white males than anything else. That’s why an all-white male team isn’t contrived” defense that many people evoke whenever white male domination is questioned. It’s a nice, neat defense that relies on “objective statistics” to prove a point that it doesn’t really prove at all because 1. No one EVER picks characters at random on these comic books. No, in fact, the characters are chosen quite specifically by editors and writers and artists; and 2. there is an insidious reason why most comic book characters are white males and it has EVERYTHING to do with racism and white supremacy.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:34 pm
It’s funny that Brevoort thinks a team of black Avengers is contrived, but having Spidey and Wolvie in every book imaginable isn’t contrived at all.
Oh, wait a minute… got that wrong. It’s not funny at all, just sad. And telling.
April 26th, 2011 at 2:58 pm
Heck, superhero comics are FULL of contrived origins. Peter Parker just so happened to get bitten by that radioactive spider.
Kal-El’s rocket just so happened to land in America (where his White skin and blues eyes would fit right in) and the perfect human couple to raise him just so happened to be driving by when it crashed. The Fantastic Four are one big contrivance to get a “family” with super-powers together (neither Sue nor Johnny should have realistically been on that first flight). And so on. Who cares if the reason is contrived or forced, as long as the story is good? I thought Reginald Hudlin did a good job of getting a group of Black heroes together for a mission, in his New Orleans arc in the Black Panther series. First, it would stand to reason that if a major disaster happened in a heavily Black city in the MU, that Black superheroes would feel a special responsibility to help out. So Black Panther and Luke Cage were there to provide aid to the survivors, while Blade and Brother Voodoo just so happened to be there to fight a rising vampire threat, so they all joined up. And then BP called in Photon because he needed her specific powers to help fight the vampires. It would have made total sense if they all had decided afterword “Hey, we worked pretty well together as a team, maybe we should try sticking together for awhile?” How would that be any different for how the original Avengers or Justice League got started?
April 26th, 2011 at 3:04 pm
@Son of Baldwin: Someone also trotted out the fact that Christopher Priest’s series “The Crew”, which Priest had even pitched as a sort of Black Avengers team, only lasted 9 issues. As if that’s some reason to never bother trying another mostly Black team again. Yet, I could swear I’ve seen tons of promos for ANOTHER Moon Knight series. And over @ DC, we’re getting ANOTHER Aquaman series. Both written by A-list talent, too. . .
April 26th, 2011 at 5:44 pm
Three of the leads in The Crew were black — Rhodey, Josiah X, and Kasper. Where did you get only one of the leads being black??? And I’m pretty sure one of the attempted pitches was by Hudlin, though I could be wrong.
April 26th, 2011 at 5:45 pm
Hahaha yeah Ronnie beat me to it. My bad.
April 26th, 2011 at 5:59 pm
J.R.: RIGHT! Luckily for poor sellers like Moon Knight and Aquaman, they’re white.
April 26th, 2011 at 6:20 pm
Tom Brevoort has decided that an all-white Avengers is NOT contrived:
@TomBrevoort If an all-black Avengers team is contrived, why isn’t an all-white Avengers team contrived?
@SonofBaldwin Because 99% of all super heroes are white. It’s the law of averages.
@TomBrevoort Except, it’s not really a “law” at all, but rather the product of severely limited imaginations.
@TomBrevoort I can’t b mad at ur excuse, only sad. And it’s that sadness that leads me, as of this moment, 2 stop supporting ur product.
April 26th, 2011 at 9:05 pm
Sonofbaldwin, how is it at all fair or reasonable that you come racing over here, posting snippets of our conversation out of context, and then try to contextualize it to fit the story you’re trying to sell.
Not cool in the slightest, and in no way respectable behavior.
Anybody who’d like to read teh full exchange, in context, ought to be able to look it up for at least the next day or so on twitter. @TomBrevoort
Sonofbaldwin, you undercut the ethos of your position when you pull crap like this.
Tom B
April 26th, 2011 at 11:49 pm
Since the actual word “contrived” was apparently used within the context of a separate, private discussion between Mr. Brevoort and “Son of Baldwin”, I’ll take that off the table for my following comments. Also, it’s fair to say that the actual pitches that were referenced by Mr. Brevoort may totally justify his position that “Black Avengers” as a title was not viable. Maybe they weren’t solid pitches, and were genuinely contrived.
That said, there’s some very subjective logic to be found here.
By Mr. Brevoort’s own wording (as stated earlier in the CBR column), in order for an AVENGERS book to feel like an AVENGERS book-proper, his “rule of thumb was that to feel like ‘Avengers,’ you needed at least two of the founders around.” In line-ups where you didn’t have a founder present, having characters of similar stature (Spider-Man, Wolverine), or with a “silhouette” similar to AVENGERS-associated characters (Ant-Man, War Machine), or possessing AVENGERS-associated “history” (The Beast, Valkyrie) justified a book being deemed authentic.
Which no matter how one slices it, is pretty darn subjective. And a publisher is allowed to be be subjective. But let’s be clear on this point: BLACK AVENGERS would be no less viable than the majority of other MARVEL books, at least in high-concept.
Luke Cage, The Black Panther and Monica Rambeau each have Avengers history. (Mr. Brevoort notes how integral Cage has become to the team under Bendis’ run. The Panther is a featured player on the current animated series, and some years ago, Rambeau was team leader for a time in the book.)
Mr. Brevoort himself notes that War Machine “looks like he fits” the role of an Avenger. He’s also got such a strong tie to Iron-Man, he could be deemed an Avenger-once-removed.
The Falcon is a former Avenger with similarly strong ties to Captain America.
Storm has at least as much stature as The Beast, and is arguably MARVEL’s most recognizable female character overall.
There’s nothing subjective in observing that these characters more than meet the elusive criteria it takes to merit an AVENGERS book (sans a viable script, of course). Far flimsier premises for books have been thrust upon readers.
I think MARVEL should trust their readers to decide if such a grouping would be contrived or not.