Yesterday DC Comics released the third issue of Justice League: Cry For Justice, James Robinson and Mauro Cascioli’s miniseries about Green Lantern Hal Jordan and Green Arrow Oliver Queen forming their own, more aggressive and proactive Justice League team.
This issue contains a scene in which the superheroes capture the villain Prometheus, and torture him for information. The scene was among the pages that DC released as a preview earlier in the week.
It’s a perfect example of why I hate seeing serious, real-world issues injected into super-comics.
Make no mistake, I don’t think there are any topics that DC and Marvel should forbid their writers from ever exploring under any circumstances, but when they address topics as serious as torturing prisoners, and whether it’s moral, ethical or effective, a topic that is the source of very important debate in our country right now, then they damn well better do a good job of it. It can’t just be something tossed off between the normal men-in-tights melodrama and punching and exploding.
The problem with superheroes is that they automatically make any topic they address at least somewhat ridiculous. Regardless of the age the majority of their audience now, or the people creating their stories, they were created as children’s characters and they will always be, at least on some level, cartoon characters.
Sure, Geoff Johns has done really great work on the Green Lantern monthly, and it’s definitely a comic by and for adults now, but that doesn’t mean Hal Jordan isn’t also the character from that goofy Super Friends cartoon. Adding dead-serious elements like torture into a story featuring him almost inevitably makes it seem as if a writer is making light of those elements. Unless it’s a really, really well-written comic which can skillfully avoid the inherent difficulties of Justice Leaguers Hal Jordan, Ollie Queen and Ray “The Atom” Palmer resorting to torture.
And Robinson clearly isn’t ignorant of this. He does have a character ask if hurting Prometheus until he agrees to talk is torture, and if it’s crossing a line. That character is then rebuffed by others saying it’s okay to torture a murderer because it’s more fair than killing them, or if they hurt your feelings badly enough.
One could argue that it’s realistic to have heroes torture villains for information once in a while because hey, it happens in real life. That argument never sounded very convincing to me. Just look at who’s standing around in that room: A resurrected guy with an alien magic wishing ring, his resurrected friend, teenage alien girl, a guy who can shrink to the size of an atom, and a guy who gets the powers of mythological characters when he says a magic word. Heck, flip a few pages and check out the scene with the talking gorilla. But beyond the fact that the DC Universe (like the Marvel Universe and any other fictional superhero universe) is an inherently ridiculous, unrealistic place, a scene like this just doesn’t even make any logical sense within the context of that ridiculous, realistic place.
Hal Jordan needs information from a bad guy who doesn’t want to talk, huh? Hmm. Well, he could torture the bad guy, or he could just call up his friend who just so happens to have a magical lasso specifically designed to make bad guys truthfully confess information. Torture this dude, call Wonder Woman, torture this dude, call Wonder Woman…tough call!
As depressing as it is to see so-called superheroes taking Dick Cheney’s side in the torture debate, it’s even more so when you realize their position is even more reprehensible than Cheney’s—after all, it’s not like the CIA have Wonder Woman and her magic lasso on speed dial but chose not to give her a call.
Preemptive argumentation!
Yes, I’m aware of the fact that in JLA #17, Wonder Woman’s mom threatens to use the lasso on Prometheus and he responds that he can resist its magic. “I promise you I’ll resist until my mind is in ruins,” he says, “I can do it, Wonder Woman. And you still won’t get what you need.” Does that mean Prometheus is immune to Wonder Woman’s lasso?
Well, a couple of things. He might have been bluffing (in that same story, he bluffed The Flash into sitting the fight out by telling him if he used super-speed, it would trigger hidden bombs). Jordan and Queen were dead at the time and Palmer retired, so none of them would have known of Prometheus’ boast. Even if the lasso did leave his mind “in ruins,” they’d essentially be mentally torturing him, which isn’t any worse than physically torturing him, is it? (In both cases, the goal would be to break him). And obviously he wouldn’t have resisted that long anyway, if he gave in so quickly to torture here.
And yeah, I also know that (SPOILER! SPOILER! SPOILER!) that’s not really Prometheus that they’re torturing, which is another weakness with the story entirely, so let’s not get into that here. (But jeez, you’d think the Atom would notice if he was inside the guy, right?)
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:49 am
Completely agree with your analysis. Huge James Robinson fan, (Starman, Golden Age, LOTDK issues, etc.), but dropped this title after one issue. It is just horrible in so many ways (“Justice”-yelling, Hal Jordan the three-way-ist, Supergirl being introduced by her chest, now this…). How could it go so awry? Thanks for helping me not regret missing this one. And I don’t think the artwork is that great either.
Mr. Robinson’s Superman work has been surprisingly dull and off-target. I will probably pass on his Justice League of America on that basis. Amazing to me how DC has continuously fouled up that book over the last few years, and the apparent roster for Mr. Robinson’s stint doesn’t seem like it will be any improvement.
September 3rd, 2009 at 9:53 am
First, I don’t understand the argument that the characters in comic books are somehow not able to act like real human beings simply because they’re drawn or because they have been marketed to all ages. That’s pretty condescending to comic book readers of all ages.
Second, the comic writer believes the character of Hal Jordan would do this. It’s that simple. The writer was sticking to what he believes is the character’s nature.
And I agree with the writer — Hal would do this. He’s military and has just recently been a P.O.W. — and I’m sure whatever brief pain he is inflicting on this person is nothing compared to the pain inflicted on him by other murderers and terrorists who held him and his fellow soldiers in captivity.
Batman would do it too. Wonder Woman wouldn’t. Green Arrow’s not so comfortable with it either. Dirty Harry would do it. Cagney and Lacey wouldn’t. That’s who they are and they shouldn’t be written any other way.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Vaneta Rogers wrote: “Hal would do this. He’s military and has just recently been a P.O.W.”
Are you at all familiar with Sen. John McCain? Similar experience, opposite perspective on torture.
As to the rest of your assessment … Wonder Woman, who snapped Maxwell Lord’s neck (another lowlight), wouldn’t torture someone?
Personally I read comics for a mix of escapism and nostalgia. Not blood and guts and torture. I have enough of that in my day to day life : )
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:31 am
Kill this fucking cliche please. Is there any form of media that hasn’t trotted out this tired Hero as totturer schtick?
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:40 am
Walter,
Love your username, agree with your sentiment.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:42 am
My second concern with this mini-series is the way it runs non-USA superheroes through a literal meat-grinder. Freedom Beast(South Africa), Tasmanian Devil(Australia), Gloss(mainland China), Sandstorm(Syria)…and we’re wondering who’s next.
Tasmanian Devil in particular was more than a bit of a shock, and I’d bet a lot of readers are hoping for all four corpses to be revealed as wannabe copycats in the wrong place and time.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:49 am
Umm, McCain sided with the Bush policy on torture post-2006 & never once objected to it.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/04/27/mccain/
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/02/20/mccain-torture-veto/
The fact that Wonder Woman snapped Maxwell Lord’s neck pretty much proves that she didn’t torture him, no?
I agree with pretty much everything Vaneta said, & these knee-jerk reaction “articles” are getting kinda old.
No offense.
–J.
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:56 am
And let’s not lose sight of the fact that torture produces information that is unreliable,at best.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:10 am
And the big question is always gonna be “Which side are you on?” as the old union song goes. Does a superhero look after the people or the government?
“Will you be a lousy scab
Or will you be a man?
Don’t scab for the bosses,
Don’t listen to their lies.
Us poor folks haven’t got a chance
Unless we organize.”
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 am
course i guess that villain guy isn’t exactly poor is he?
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:11 am
“matchesmalone Says:
September 3rd, 2009 at 10:04 am
Vaneta Rogers wrote: “Hal would do this. He’s military and has just recently been a P.O.W.”
Are you at all familiar with Sen. John McCain? Similar experience, opposite perspective on torture.
As to the rest of your assessment … Wonder Woman, who snapped Maxwell Lord’s neck (another lowlight), wouldn’t torture someone?
Personally I read comics for a mix of escapism and nostalgia. Not blood and guts and torture. I have enough of that in my day to day life : )”
Yeah, now that you point it out, a good writer could make either case. Hal could just as easily say “no, I’ve been tortured, I wouldn’t do this.” Or with Wonder Woman or Batman, a writer could show them learning from an experience where they cross the line. But I stand by the fact that it’s just as legitimate to have him try it out on a villain as it would be to have him do the opposite. It’s a character choice — not some grand statement on the merits of torture.
Damn, makes me want to see an episode where Cagney and Lacey struggle with the opportunity to torture someone. Cagney would most definitely give it a try before Lacey. She never would.
I don’t read comics for this or that. I read them for good stories. Sometimes that’s blood and guts, sometimes that’s silliness, and sometimes that’s “fun.” I get just as much enjoyment out of The Walking Dead as I do out of Scott Pilgrim — I think there’s room for all types of stories in the medium. But I respect you having a preference for nostalgia and escape. I’ve met a lot of men who read comics for that.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:17 am
Whoa… what happened to the Tasmanian Devil?
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:34 am
One of the side problems of political differences is that we have to psychoanalyze every little thing that they do and compare it to real life events. I consider myself a conservative thinker, I realize that most comic writers (or anyone in the entertainment field for that matter) will at least shade to the liberal side of things. If I were to get up in arms everytime something happens in a comic that is not in step with my political beliefs, I wouldn’t be able to read comics anymore. Please allow a story to be told without turning it into the McLaughlin Group.
September 3rd, 2009 at 11:37 am
I’m convinced this is a parody book.
I’m totally hooked, but only because I can’t wait to see how much worse it can get. It’s a glorious train wreck of a comic.
The only way it could be better would be Rob Liefeld on art.
-J
September 3rd, 2009 at 12:39 pm
Or it could just be a story about the repurcussions of the heroes actions. As has been stated many times in interviews. You know?
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:22 pm
Ironically, Hal Jordan was once a major DC villain as well…
September 3rd, 2009 at 1:36 pm
I would agree that Hal would do this. Which is why, since his return, I don’t really care for him. He’s really not that likable at the moment, and maybe never was. I prefer Kyle a lot more than I ever thought I would.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:44 pm
“And yeah, I also know that. . . that’s not really Prometheus that they’re torturing, which is another weakness with the story”
I took it as a subtle indication as to the ineffective nature of tourture–there’s a way around any of coercion (taken to extreme example through the magic of comicbook doppelgangers). Speaking of doppelgangers, clayface was blackmailed into helping promethius, no? A 2nd indicator of how Hal (and the teams) actions are drawing them closer to the dark side of this middle ground. Blackmail being very much a “sort of” tourture.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:51 pm
The debate is ultimately pointless because, as is pointed out in this column, it wouldn’t be a question in the DC Universe. Let’s even forget about Wonder Woman’s lasso — how many freaking telepaths are there running around by now? Or magicians? There are a whole boatload of means to get information out of him that don’t exist in the real world, which makes introducing the debate in a comic book ridiculous — because it’s not a debate, not in the DCU.
It’s illogical, bad storytelling, no matter how you fall on the issue.
September 3rd, 2009 at 2:55 pm
Could superheroes punching and beating up supervillains be considered “torture”? If not….why not? Physical violence and harm are inflicted to create great pain and/or unconsciousness, thereby subduing the supervillain and upholding public safety. How is physical coersion any different since its goal of the larger public good is the same?
September 3rd, 2009 at 3:03 pm
@Mark Engblom – I think it’s clear that a combat situation, where the villain is attacking back and you’re fighting for your life and the lives of your teammates in a very immediate sense, is different from a situation where the enemy is subdued and you’re simply using your superior strategic position to, for lack of a better word, bully him. A soldier with both hands free and a gun in his holster is much different in standard combat than a soldier tied to a chair with his sidearm confiscated. Same thing here.
September 3rd, 2009 at 4:25 pm
I personally don’t have a big beef with the story itself. But the whole thing is ham-fisted and poorly written. Has anybody actually read the dialog out loud and thought, “Yeah, that’s how people talk in real life.”
Or better yet, “Yeah. That’s how people talk. In real life. That’s how I talk!”
September 3rd, 2009 at 5:18 pm
Kyle Garret says:
[The debate is ultimately pointless because, as is pointed out in this column, it wouldn’t be a question in the DC Universe. Let’s even forget about Wonder Woman’s lasso — how many freaking telepaths are there running around by now? Or magicians? There are a whole boatload of means to get information out of him that don’t exist in the real world, which makes introducing the debate in a comic book ridiculous — because it’s not a debate, not in the DCU.
It’s illogical, bad storytelling, no matter how you fall on the issue.]
Well can’t argument with that point.
Why should Jordan torture a supervillain when Zatanna could simple zap the bad guy with a truth spell?
September 3rd, 2009 at 5:34 pm
@Kyle Garret, Fred: While I agree with you in terms of practicality, I think taking a too “in-universe” view of these things ignores the fact that superhero stories (and all fiction, whether it happens in our universe or not) aren’t told in a vacuum. They’re often used to make larger points using metaphor, or address complex social issues by trying to make them appear black-and-white, for any number of reasons. In a world where Dr. Manhattan was reinventing science on his lunch breaks, do you really think the Cold War would have gone down so close to EXACTLY the way it did in “our” world? WATCHMEN doesn’t make sense at all if you apply the sort of logic to it that you’re trying to apply to “Cry For Justice” now. This is just a particularly poor handling of it.
September 3rd, 2009 at 6:39 pm
Batman would totally waterboard. But he wouldn’t let anyone else do anything to a prisoner in captivity without his supervision.
But he’s dead, so it’s ethical chaos in the DCU.
But in terms of characterization; torture is pretty much predicated on fear, and in recent times Hal made it clear that Batman’s reliance on fear made him uncomfortable. Plus, the Sinestro Corps is powered by fear. Will power would probably involve another solution. There’s a case to be made that a military like Hal would be okay with extreme interrogation, sure, but it does feel inconsistent with the characterization elsewhere.
And that’s before even addressing whether this was a “ticking time bomb,” situation or not…
September 5th, 2009 at 9:31 am
Mark Engblom: Torture apologist. Stay classy!
September 6th, 2009 at 9:40 pm
@ Kyle Garret.
By your logic most Batman stories are “bad writing” because 95% of the time Batman could solve whatever problem he’s facing in a given issue WAY more easily by calling on his superhero friends with godlike powers for help instead of relying on his martial arts/detective/boomerang throwing skills all the time.
January 17th, 2011 at 4:48 pm
Hi I love your article and it was so good and I am gonna bookmark it. One thing to say the Indepth analysis you have done is greatly remarkable.No one goes that extra mile these days? Well Done!! Just another suggestion you caninstall a Translator for your Worldwide Audience .