Amen. I’m as liberal as they come, and I’m a dad, and I totally get not wanting your kids to get into smoking because it’s glamorous…

But for %*#6 sake, can we let Wolverine, the Thing and Nick Fury have a damn cigar without it causing some kind of public crisis?

“can we let Wolverine, the Thing and Nick Fury have a damn cigar without it causing some kind of public crisis?”

No, we can’t. Joe Q won’t allow it.

I meant the least harmful of smokable things

To be fair, smoking is much, much more likely to kill you than terrorism.

To be fair, I’m against the AMAA, but it’s not best to quote where is Bill Hicks, when he in fact died of lung cancer, from smoking, so that’s where he is now.

I’m not a smoker. Never have been. Think it’s disgusting, and cannot stand the smell.

Having said that, smoking is one of those things where the rights of the smoker have been summarily trampled over the past 20 years or so. Many cities and states have criminalized smoking in any publicly accessible building, like bars. If I’m not mistaken, a couple of states have banned smoking in any open public area, like, you know, OUTSIDE, IN YOUR YARD.

All in the name of public health & safety.

I have no doubt that this will eventually be passed by the MPAA. I remember a book by Ben Bova from several years ago, where the book starts as the main characters are digitally removing cigarettes from classic movies, like Casablanca.

Actually Chris, Bill Hicks died of pancreatic cancer.

I’ve long thought that both the AMAA and Joey Q need to get over this whole smoking thing. So Joey Q’s dad died of lung cancer from smoking? My grandmother was an alcoholic and died of multi-organ failure because of it. But I would never censor any works of fiction that include drinking, nor am I going to stop drinking myself (unless I think it’s becoming a problem). It’s a choice, and adults in real life and in fiction should be allowed to partake in whatever legal activities they want without being branded with some kind of scarlet letter.

More liberal social engineering.

“or gutting Hellfire Club minions for instance”

Yeah, because showing Logan smoking is soooo much worse than showing him eviscerating, disemboweling and amputating the limbs of his adversaries.

Logic!

“More liberal social engineering.”

Bullshit.

“And if you’re as liberal as they come, you’re part of the problem. These are YOUR buddies doing this.”

And more bullshit.

There has been a hell of a lot more banning done by conservative Republicans over the years than by so-called “liberals”.

Stem cell research, gay marriage, abortion, books, sex, laughing, etc.

Interesting that Marvel Comics seems to understand what both Marvel Films and the author do not: glamorizing tobacco use is a bad thing. Why do companies pay for product placement in film? To advertise their product. If it didn’t have an impact, they wouldn’t do it. It’s estimated that a Hollywood star makes a clothing company more than a million dollars when he or she wears said company’s clothing. So what do you think a cigarette or a cigar in the hands or lips of an actor does?

Kids think Wolverine is cool (even if the movie was pretty mediocre). They can’t pop claws, take a bullet, or jump 20 feet in the air, but there are other ways in which they can emulate their favorite super hero. The way he acts, talks, and dresses. And yup, they could smoke.

Tobacco kills over 400,000 Americans each year, over 4 million world-wide. Most smokers start well before the age of 18, one of the major demographics for this film. Before you get upset that the AMAA isn’t happy about the depiction of tobacco in this film, ask yourself, who IS pleased about Wolverine chomping on a stogie? Tobacco companies benefit. It’s free advertising. It helps hook kids (it’s not the only factor, of course), and it makes them money. Why do you think tobacco is an 80 Billion dollar industry when over 2/3rds of it’s users want to quit? Addiction.

As far as the first amendment goes, it’s pretty clear that the author, Russ, doesn’t understand it. No one is asking the Government to ban smoking from all movies. The AMAA is asking the MPAA to treat tobacco use like the “F word” and rate films that contain it “R.” The movies still get made, still gets watched. No government censorship. No violation of the First Amendment.

@DaveB

Maybe the action is related to the MPAA, but the AMAA is certainly trying to create a climate where an artist can’t depict a realistic, everyday activity like smoking without fear of reprisal. That’s more like prior restraint.

I’d add that my grasp of the First Amendment (Yeah, Skippy, it’s capitalized) is just fine. That’s why I say it “flirts with the edges” or being illegal or something like that. Nothing the MPAA does to its ratings system can REALLY be unconstitutional considering that the MPAA, while government-supported in a number of ways, is a private organization and an R rating doesn’t prevent you from being able to release, distribute or market your film. Troy’s certainly right, though, that this is a case where a pressure group is trying to apply prior restraint.

Product placement isn’t really an issue, either, given that it’s not like Wolvie saying, “Man, do I love these [insert name here],” and at no time does any particular brand of cigar become clearly visible onscreen as far as I can remember. So it’s no more “product placement” than having a piece of nondescript furniture in your movie is product placement for Ikea.

One final point: Every film that contains the “F” word is not necessarily rated R. In fact, many films have lampooned the fact that you can get away with one and still get a PG-13 (the most obvious being the terrible “Get Shorty” sequel “Be Cool,” in which the complain about this very policy, using the F-word to do so, in the first scene of the film). I don’t think the one-and-done rule they use is logical, reasonable or good, either…but zero tolerance is just lunacy.

whoa, whoa, whoa – this thread was going to go for a while – at least into the afternoon. But now, further discussion has been killed because Hitler was brought up.

Seriously though, I can see the similarities between people who want to see kids not smoke and a dictator who slaughtered millions of Jews. I can’t believe I’ve never seen how one mirrors the other so clearly before…

Hitler was a totalitarian who wanted to control every facet of his German society.

He was also trying to create the superman and the superman didn’t smoke. Anyway, Brady, someone has to say “No, it ends here!” to these people or else they won’t stop. Next, it will be you can’t drink alcohol, you can’t eat certain foods, you can’t watch this type of TV, you can’t wear certain types of clothing, etc.

>>“No, it ends here!” to these people or else they won’t stop. Next, it will be you can’t drink alcohol, you can’t eat certain foods, you can’t watch this type of TV, you can’t wear certain types of clothing, etc.<<

No one’s arguing against that. But invoking Hitler is the debate/discussion equivalent of reaching into your holster and finding it empty, making a finger gun and yelling BANG BANG BANG!

Ok, Brady, maybe I’m just angry at these people.

exactly – and you’ll find very few people arguing that. And see – Hitler has nothing to do with it.

why does no one ever reference Pol Pot in these things? Even though he’s burning in Hell, he has feelings too…

Interesting, Russ. My name is posted, but you refer to me Skippy. Hmmm…how very…grown up.

And yup, in my haste I didn’t capitalize First Amendment the first time–did the second time, Russ, but I understand why you would leave out something that gets in the way of your bludgeoning a straw man. That doesn’t change the fact that your article indicated a lack of understanding about First Amendment rights (or pancreatic cancer, for that matter. Smoking is a risk factor, Russ, but I digress). Merely typing “it flirts with the edges” doesn’t change the fact that you’re connecting this to a First Amendment issue, which it clearly isn’t. If the AMAA were petitioning the government to step in you’d be right. But that isn’t the case, so you aren’t…which you go on to essentially say in your last post. Can’t say “I’m right!” and then go on to explain why you’re wrong. Undercuts your arugument, Russ.

Oh. By the way…prior restraint? Also involves the government.

And yup, most people know about the “F-word” one use policy. Zero tolerance would indicate no smoking in films. The AMAA isn’t advocating for that. In fact, they aren’t advocating for a total removal of smoking from youth rated films. If you want to know what they’re about, google “smoke free movies.” You might find a view point you haven’t considered.

I was a camp counselor from 1997 to 1999, and I can say that those three years were a real jump-the-shark kind of moment in terms of freedom for kids to just have fun. When I was younger and attending that exact same camp, it was remarkably more free than it was in 1997…and then when I left there in 1999 it was even less free than it had been two years before. Some of it was safety law but a lot of it was just community standards. Everyone started begging for more rules and it just didn’t seem like the kids could possibly be having fun anymore!

Sigh. While typing I missed all the “Hitler” silliness.

Russ, I understand your viewpoint, I just disagree with it. I can’t get behind something that will help addict kids to a product that will eventually kill so many of them. So yup, I wish Hugh Jackman hadn’t been smoking in Wolverine. And yes, I think it makes sense to rate movies so that tobacco use isn’t in films that are geared towards children and teens. I understand that you don’t agree, and why, but I’ve spent several years in prevention and I have a different outlook.

Oh fer cryin’ out loud people! It’s FICTION!!!! Whatever happened to the integrity of artistic vision or character development? Not all fictional characters fit into the bubble-wrapped, helmet-wearing, rubber pad under playground world we are currently forced to tolerate. Maybe not all fictional characters are meant for “children”, maybe it should be left to the discretion of the RESPONSIBLE adult in their life, if there is one. Why should the rest of us have to suffer a watered-down shell of the mutant we’ve been enjoying since the 70′s because the “kids” are now interested?

CENSORSHIP… the eighth deadly sin.

@DaveB – We’ll agree to disagree then, because frankly if you’ve “spent several years in prevention,” you’re not going to come at this conversation with an open mind. And that’s not an insult–I don’t come at it with an open mind, either, as my perspective is that free speech is an end unto itself and anything that impedes it in ANY way, not just legally, is undesirable. All of this is okay–I’m not one of these people who thinks that there’s never a definitively right answer and that all arguments are equally valid. I think there is right and there is wrong on some issues. That said, you and I can diametrically disagree on which is which, but if both of us are lined up on our side of the issue there’s really no sense in discussing it because it will only lead to more anger, more recriminations and more insults. You see how we went from your initial assessment that I was an idiot, to my flip dismissal of your viewpoint because of it, to your flip dismissal of me because I was flip with you?

I think inherently there’s a conflict here because my perspective is that the MPAA is government-by-proxy. They have government support and endorsement, explicit or not, and everyone knows it. The average American assumes (if they even know it exists) that the MPAA is a governing entity like the FCC. And I think that the ultimate result of the role they play in the movie industry is that their censorship is as close to government censorship as you’re likely to get in a free society. You’re absolutely right that there would be no case to take them to court for violating the First Amendment–but in my view that makes them more, not less, dangerous.

“Lol – because conservatives would never, ever tell people how to live their lives, how to behave, how to think, etc… Hahahahahahahaha! I would hope you can appreciate the ridiculousness of your statement.”

Ok, but liberals don’t? Oh, they do. If I point out an example liberal social engineering this automatically must turn into a dick wagging contest? You can’t just accept it you have to tell me things I already know about the right-wingers? If this article was about some right wing group upset abut abortion in a movie, or something, and I made a coment about conservative social engineering you would’ve said “right on brother.”

Don’t smoke kiddies, but hey, go gut people with metal claws.

As a smoker in a state about to ban smoking in public places, I understand and do my best not to affect or force the fact that i smoke onto people. I opposite is NOT true. Non-smokers always have something to say, some new way to look at me as offending the air that is apparently theirs and not mine. I don’t care if someone in a movie smokes, this is just a new way to annoy smokers and tell us what awful human beings we are. The first time I say the MPAA smoking rating for smoking was Incredible Hulk, for Gen. Ross, and i was floored by the ridiculousness of this. I feel the MPAA should be ripped down same as the Comic Code was. There isn’t a law saying a studio has to admit their movies for review, so I say don’t and the first round of films I say that should do this is Marvel Studio films. Marvel took CC out of their printing equation a long time ago, so do the same with the MPAA. Prove you don’t need them to have successful movies and other studios will follow suit.

Because your precious little snowflake would never take up smoking if it weren’t for those devils in Hollywood.

What a bunch of junk.

Let me preface this by saying I don’t smoke, never have, and never will. Smoking has become an easy target for people who want to do good, but don’t have the courage or creativity to attack real problems. Yes, smoking is bad for you, and yes, tobacco companies are kind of sleazy, but, and this is the important part, THEY CANNOT MAKE YOU SMOKE. No one is putting tobacco in your drinking water or air vents. Maybe having fictional characters smoke does make it look cool, but people still have free will, and can say no. You want to stop kids from smoking? Encourage critical thinking, not thought police tactics. Coddling kids and sheltering them from unpleasantness with half-truths and omissions only serves to teach them that adults are liars and “bad” behavior is good. It’s frustrating that so many people think that’s a good way to solve problems.

Oh. Before people freak out. Marvel had already made the decision to remove smoking from their comics one year prior to meeting with me and some students. I cannot take credit (or in other’s eyes, blame), for their decision.

This is ridiculous, period. All anti-smoking organizations need to put their energy and effort into fighting with the AMA on all the harmful ingredients(high fructose corn syrup, etc.) being put into the national food supply and water supply(fluoride, etc.) without customers’ consent instead of this waste of time and resources. Even if one wants to argue such and such isn’t unhealthy, at least a long term study of effects on humans from some of the man-made chemicals, would still be a better allocation of resources. All of the “safeguard” institutions(anti-smoking, FDA, AMA, ADL, etc.) in this country all do the same thing. They only pretend to champion the cause of protecting the people and do so by busying themselves with frivolous and insignificant causes. Meanwhile, the causes that would really make a difference and by obvious extension, hit into the profits of the major corporations that hold much sway over the direction of this country(economic and otherwise) are never taken up by these “protectors.”

“Meanwhile, the causes that would really make a difference and by obvious extension, hit into the profits of the major corporations that hold much sway over the direction of this country(economic and otherwise) are never taken up by these “protectors.”

You think people who stand against the Tobacco industry, one of the most powerful lobbying groups in Washington, an 80 Billion dollar a year industry, aren’t doing this?

4 million dead worldwide every year from tobacco. I don’t think that can be considered”frivolous and insignificant.”

Oops. The quotes in my post above are from a Newsarama forum from several years back. Accidentally didn’t cite that.

I think the moral of the story is simple, if you have a healing factor, you can smoke as much as you want, if not, don’t do it, so go ask your doctor about your healing factor, if he tells you that you don’t have one, you better don’t smoke.

Peace.

“You make it sound as if all Marvel heroes did was fight bad guys in between taking smoke breaks back at the secret hideout”

LOL! That’s very funny! No, I don’t think that Marvel was a mouthpiece for Marlboro. THEY recognized that having these characters smoke, especially Wolverine, one of their most popular, made an impact and so they made a change.

No question the smoking wasn’t widespread, but it did exist and they didn’t want it to, so they removed it.

Nah, Wolverine wasn’t defeating bad guys, “looking into the camera” and saying, “Hey Kids, after carving up some evil mutants, nothing is more satisfying than the smooth rich flavor of Winston Cigarettes (which, by the way, Fred Flintstone essentially did a few decades ago in TV ads. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqdTBDkUEEQ). ”

It certainly was never like that, but Marvel recognized that some of their readers were connecting the concept of cool with these characters smoking (again, see the quotes above). And they didn’t want that.

I don’t think I ever implied that every Marvel character was lighting up all the time…not even in the Wolverine film.

Russ, I completely get what you’re saying.

I don’t know what Marvel’s motives were in terms of announcing the new policy. I don’t recall a big fanfare (but I could have missed it). As you pointed out, that can be tough to do these days with the internet, various media. Case in point: I know way too much about Paris Hilton, and I don’t make any effort to know anything about her at all.

I honestly don’t think Marvel was trying to get recognition from people in the anti-tobacco field, but it’s not like I was in the war room when these decisions were made. The only reason I got to speak with both he and Bill Jemas was because I happened to see a blurb in Wizard saying that Marvel was making a change. The group I worked with wanted to recognize them, so we went through various channels and were fortunate enough to visit Marvel offices for a couple of hours. Marvel didn’t seek us out or promote the recognition they received from us.

You’re right though. When people have questions about corporate motivations…

“they were only lighting up after drunken, unprotected sex.” After killing people. Don’t forget the killing!

Russ, if I wasn’t clear, you’re right. Marvel deserved a ton of credit for making decisions based on their principles and ethics. That’s why we did our best to commend them for what they did.

I don’t know if this needs to be said, but if you choose to smoke and die as a result, that’s your problem. If you choose to have a terrorist kill you, and you die as a result, that’s your problem. However, most people do not consciously choose to be targeted by terrorists, and most people do decide to smoke.
Summarily, I don’t care which kills the most people, one is murder and one is suicide. The two are incomparable.

I for one would like to see an issue of “Mini Marvels” or “Tiny Titans” where all the characters smoke behind the schoolhouse.

Wolverine is pressuring our young ones to run around with knives and stab people repeatedly every time he pops those claws and goes to work. We must put a stop to it. The knives related injuries have gone up 900% since the movie premiered. That is a factual statistic I just made up.

He’s also encouraging out kids to wear flannel and consume obscene amounts of hair spray. This is a —-ing outrage, America!

“Kids think Wolverine is cool … but there are other ways in which they can emulate their favorite super hero. The way he acts, talks, and dresses. And yup, they could smoke.”

I’d guess most (not all, mind you) posters on here who read comics as kids thought wolverine was cool. I wonder how many of us started smoking cigars at 13 because he did? Or started wearing flowery cowboy hats and wife-beaters in grade 8? We should have a poll.

I think it more likely wolverine was created for the comic book audience. Who would create a beserk, murdering, psychopath with kids in mind?

OH MY GOD!! All the kids in the world are going to smoke because Wolverine said it was ok in the movie!
Wait..he never said it was ok in the movie…he never glamorized it in the movie…he had a cigar in his mouth, it wasn’t the focus of anything and KIDS AREN’T THAT STUPID.

Ever notice how the anti-smoking zealots never want to allow us the benefit of not being complete morons? they think we can’t think for ourselves that our children are utter morons and only they can save us from the presumed dangers of smoking.
I say presumed because all I’ve seen are studies that give a possible link between smoking and anything. There seems to be no hard evidence and don’t get me started on the total BS that second hand smoke is.

To dictate what we see in movies is bad enough, for a group of self righteous, holier-than-thou medical ‘professionals’ to come along and tell us YOU can’t see smoking in a movie because WE think it’s bad is just plain stupid.
“But smoking causes cancer and it kills” you say? MAYBE. But people get cancer every day without the help of smoking and people die every day who have never smoked a day in their lives. If someone enjoys smoking, let them. If someone wants a character to smoke in a movie for 5 minutes let them. If you don’t like it then go back to your cave of safety and leave the rest of us alone.

I remember when movie theater popcorn was tasty until another group of people who know better than we do came along and claimed it would kill us if we eat it and they forced theaters to change the oil they use to pop their popcorn and now it makes me sick every time I’ve tried it.
Like this issue, no one normal ever died directly from eating it. It was just a scare tactic used by a group of people who think the rest of us are morons and need nurse maiding.
If you don’t like smoking, that’s good. For you. It doesn’t bother me either way and I’ve never see it linked directly to anything other than smelly clothes at the end of the night.
I say we comics fans unite on this and email the hell out of this group and the MPAA (another group we really don’t need. a bunch of people we never see or even know telling us what is appropriate for us to see in movies? Something’s wrong with that)and tell them to get off it. There are far more important things to worry about than is a fictional character smoked a stogie for a few minutes in a movie.
I miss when they smoked in comics. Ending that was a lame idea to.
“But if kids see this they will smoke too!” Listen, kids aren’t that stupid. If yours are then maybe you shouldn’t have anymore and put down the ones you have. This is just as stupid as saying there shouldn’t be a Wolverine movie because then kids will start shoving knives in the backs of their hands.

Get off it. Get a life. And let the rest of us live ours.

I think this “article” is mislabeled. It’s not an article, it’s an editorial.

I’m all for removing smoking from movies in comics. They don’t make Wolverine or Nick Fury any cooler, and IMO smoking doesn’t belong in movies, comics, etc. that are viewed by kids. I support Joe Q’s removal of smoking from Marvel.

It’s a freakin’ comic book for pete’s sake. all of you prudes can take the sticks out of your herpes infested asses anytime now.

Wait wait wait… Smoking is BAD for you?

censorship is A OKAY!! if it’s for the kids…

Speeding kills more than smoking. No more car chases in PG-13 movies!!!

Evil_S2003 said it perfectly.

Ok… first of all, why did liberal/conservative arguments get brought into this?

Second, “Hitler”? Really?! Comparing a silly group of people trying to stop people from smoking to a man who performed mass genocide?? Are you guys out of your flippin’ minds?!

That said, I am a proud non-smoking liberal and I think this whole thing is whack and stupid. I grew up watching tons of movies/cartoons with tons of character smoking all the time and it didn’t effect me in the least. This is yet another bunch of people that think kids are mentally retarded and can’t make choices without these groups “protecting” them. Doesn’t matter what political agenda they have (and why does it matter?). Both liberals and conservatives smoke last time I checked. If you don;t believe me, just ask the President.

Smoking’s just one reason to give this movie an R-rating. They ought to do anything they can to get as few people watching this dreck as possible. Okay a little off point I know. As far as smoking in movies goes, well I still watch The Big Sleep where everything with a pulse inhales nicotine and tar doesn’t make me want to do the same.

Issues like this have bothered me for a long time. While I’m more Liberal than not I do not think there should be over regulation of the entertainment industry with issues such as this, among others.

Ultimately it’s a cop out! If you Don’t want your kids to smoke, talk to them! Explain the dangers and how whats on the screen is fiction. In short…PARENT! Teach your children and hope for the best!

I am the youngest of Six Children. I was born in 1962 and grew up with depictions of smoking everywhere. Furthermore both of my parents smoked heavily.

Not one of my siblings or myself smoke cigarettes. I will admit to having a cigar every few years or so (literally ONE cigar every couple of years!)if the mood hits me.

People always seem amazed that none of my sisters or I smoke and we simply tell them that our parents made a point of telling us they regretted taking up the habit and wished they could stop.

My Mother finally DID stop when she was diagnosed with Esophageal and Stomach Cancer…both directly related to her Smoking (It’s a misconception to think Smoking ONLY causes Lung Cancer. It can, in fact contribute to virtually ANY kind of cancer including the aforementioned Pancreatic cancer. You are ingesting carcinogens into your body which can propagate anywhere).

My Mom died from her disease and said to me at one point that she had “Done this to herself”.

Also, the person that said Cigars were somehow less harmful is also mistaken. While you don’t inhale cigar smoke, thus limiting the impact on your lungs, the affect on your lips, gums and throat are significantly higher than cigarettes. Throat cancer is one of the leading forms of cancer among regular cigar smokers.

SO I understand the passion behind their requests I think it’s misguided.

On the other hand I DO fully support smoking bans that have been put into effect. There is no reason I should have to breath someone else’s second hand smoke when I go out somewhere in public. Furthermore my wife has Asthma and frankly COULDN’T go to most places before the bans were enacted because she could suffer pulmonary arrest.

Depictions of smoking and being subjected to someone else smoke are two different things!

BRIAN Smoking Regulations are not a partisan issue but it is true that the support is more universal among Democrats. Primarily because many Republicans accept contributions from the tobacco companies.

The articles you’ve gotten on your website are at all times so satisfying to read. Good work and I will likely be returning often.

Man I love your post and it is so good and I am gonna bookmark it. One thing to say the Indepth analysis you have done is trully remarkable.No one goes that extra mile these days? Bravo Just another suggestion you shouldget a Translator Application for your Global Audience ..

Your site looks great and I’ve been chugging through content! You share some great opinions and insight here. Always looking for motivating blogs to keep mine going!

I do consider all the ideas you have offered for your post. They are really convincing and will certainly work. Still, the posts are too brief for newbies. Could you please lengthen them a little from subsequent time? Thanks for the post.