lastly – Joe – i think you’re on to something there too. If you read/watch media aimed purely at a female audience it’s not exactly realistic either! I would feel both offended and a li’l insecure if i felt i had to live up to the 2-dimensional male characters in romance fiction!

Brent Anderson was the same way when he was drawing Strikeforce: Morituri, if memory serves.

And to almost quote my favorite obscure cartoonist, E. Fitz Smith, the trouble with cheesecake and cherry tarts is that if you live on them, you get diabetes and your teeth fall out. I could live with it more readily if it wasn’t so damn prevalent.

You’re welcome. Don’t get me wrong, I do love stories with stronger women (Runaways was mentioned, which I love, and lots of manga like Fullmetal Alchemist and Battle Angel Alita feature strong women) I just don’t mind a little cheesecake for dessert.

And I can understand the frustration a little bit. I enjoy good romance stories, but a majority of them are aimed for women, often times portraying the man in the poor light. “Woman’s husband is philandering jerk so she leaves him for someone else.” Or “Woman stuck in unsatisfying marriage with man that doesn’t appreciate her so a sexy stranger saves her from it!” In one story the man is the cheater and in the wrong (rightfully so) but in the other the woman is the unfaithful one and is rewarded for it (huh?). But it’s aimed at women and not me.

So I think the REAL problem isn’t how women and men are portrayed in these stories, but do they actually help mold our preconceived opinions of each other? I think they do on a small scale, but I think personal interaction with the opposite sex affects it a lot more. That’s why it doesn’t bother me much.

I applaud the guts to show that.

Assuming you’re just not trolling, then you’re very close minded. There’s a difference between the IDEALIZED form, which you’re talking about, and the SEXUALIZED form, which the grown-ups are talking about.

All heros are drawn to idealized standards, true. But women heroes are consistently drawn to titilate readers. So the images you linked to don’t count. Show me an image of Superman where I can see his nipples through his costume. Show me a picture of Batman in a speedo. Show me a shot of Captain America where I can make out the outline of his wang through his tights.

That’s what we’re talking about. It’s absurd to think that the male icons would be portrayed in such a beefcake fashion. Yet the most prominent female super-hero in the known world has a costume that is essentially a swimsuit. Two other prominent female heroes in the DCU wear fishnets as part of their crime-fighting costume. The last time I checked, Huntress wears thigh-high boots and has an opening around her mid-riff.

There are some instances that I’ll give a pass to: Supergirl is a teenager, so I can see her baring her mid-riff (plus the fact that she’s bulletproof negates the need for armor of any kind). Starfire’s exhibitionism was established early in New Teen Titans.

But are there ANY comparable example on the male side of the board? Sure, the Thing goes around without a shirt, but HE’S A MONSTER. Namor usually wears nothing more than a swimsuit, but then again, HE’S A SWIMMER. There is not a hero from either DC or Marvel that shows his skin without a logical explanation.

Give me one example, Ryan. Just one. Prove to us that you’re more than a troll, and that you have something to contribute to the discussion.

Futhermore, not ALL heroes are perfectly idealized forms. Two prominent examples I can think of are Mark Bagley’s rather scrawny Ultimate Spider-Man and the Runaways. I think Runaways is especially notable because these are heroes who 1) have no costumes, and 2) are portrayed with normal bodytypes for teenagers their age.

And what’s wrong with girl-wonder? That’s a serious question, Ryan. I’ve never been, so I want to know what you think about it.

THANK YOU. Thank you for being honest. I actually respect this. I still think it’s enormously problematic for us women fans, but at least it’s honest, you know? It’s these endless arguments pretending that it’s something that it’s not that drives me more mad.

Both genders are, in fact, drawn unrealistically in comics, and both are drawn to appeal to the fantasy life of men. The women are drawn with a focus on their sex appeal, so that the male audience will want them; the men are drawn with a focus on their strength and power so that the male audience will want to be them.

In smaller words, what I’m saying here is this: You get the good things in the drawing of both genders, because you are the chosen audience. I don’t get anything good; both men and women are drawn to appeal to your fantasy life, not mine. I’m sure that this is fine for you, since you are being catered to, but you’ll have to pardon me for thinking that it sucks.

I don’t mind the unrealistic proportions; being able to roll with a certain (large) lack of realism is part and parcel of being a fan of the superhero comic genre. What I mind is that everything else about the female heroes are secondary to their sex appeal, while the male heroes don’t have that burden. (Unless, of course, we’d get to turn the tables on the Marvel Divas comic like this. Seeing the men depicted as sex objects first, people second is sort of refreshing.)

http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4#25

aka Comics are never going to change. You’re wasting your time.

This is exactly the point. So, this is the status quo, and we all have to live with it? Nothing ever changes in comics? Please. The question for me becomes: why are so many guys so invested in defending this status quo?

As this has one been explained a couple of times upthread, I’ll just link you to the bingo card entry so kindly supplied by Girls Read Comics: http://girl-wonder.org/girlsreadcomics/?p=4#13

http://www.skyseastone.net/nuadha/hand/conan.jpg
or
http://www.supermantv.net/superman/comicbooks/new/worlds-finest-jimlee.jpg

What impossible images for men to live up to. I’m sick of this type of cheesecake in my comic books. Why don’t all men in comics look like regular guys, wearing jeans and a sweat-stained t-shirt? And I mean, look at their jobs! One is a king, one is a famous reporter, and one is a playboy millionaire! Where’s the super heroes that work at Denny’s or pump gas? I’m sick of the unrealistic views that superheroes show young men.

…

It’s not just that every time I try to read a comic with women heroes I feel objectified myself, or alienated, or invisible; it’s that boys are growing up reading these things, forming their relationships to the opposite gender through them. So are girls, for that matter, but boys are still the majority of the readers, and what they’re learning from comics is that women are there to be stared at, displayed as sexual objects, existing for the pleasure of men. Among other things.

Yeah, often the cover doesn’t reflect how the heroine is portrayed in the comic itself; but the cover is the most visible aspect of the comic, what catches the eye, what is supposed to draw the reader. What are we saying if we have a kickass women hero inside the comic, but her representative cover is cheesecake/porntastic? The cover ends up negating whatever strength she displays in the story, in one fell swoop.

Mr Wesley: Thank you.

Z: I’m sorry you felt condescended to.

When I was five years old I would spin around until I was too dizzy to stand, pretending that I could turn into Wonder Woman. When I was eight years old I would close my eyes and strike the Firestar pose, pretending that I could light up with flame. When I was ten years old I used to jump off of my bunk bed, pretending that I could fly like Supergirl. I want to see my heroes be heroes first, not always being distracted by posing for the male audience. I want to see my heroes defined by what they can do, not how they look. I want to be able to look in this paper mirror and pretend that once upon a time, there were women who fought villains and monsters and all kinds of evil, and that they were too awesome to give a damn if they broke a nail or looked unladylike or if other people thought they needed to wear a skirt so they wouldn’t scare the menfolk by being too strong.

Instead, I get people explaining that I shouldn’t feel too bad about all the female characters being objectified because at least this dude can draw feet! Yeah, that’s not condescending at all.

This additional thought occurred to me:

That shirt in the Oracle covers wasn’t chosen because it’s a normal thing for a woman in her own space to be wearing, a casual shirt she’s comfortable in. Most of us, when alone in our own space, wear not so revealing clothing. Really, what she’s doing is comparable to telecommuting, right? And the advantages of telecommuting? Not having to dress yourself up for an audience.

No, in these covers she’s showing off her breasts. While alone. Who is she showing them off to? Not anyone in the frame of the story (again, she’s alone) — she’s flashing the reader/potential buyer. She’s showing off for the absent (male) gaze of the comic reader.

That is the difference between the portrayals of men and women superheros in comics, as R. said. The male characters are not there to titillate, because the assumed consumer of the comics is heterosexual men.

When we complain about how a female superhero, or villain, is drawn all out of proportion in order to exaggerate her sexual attributes, we’re not complaining that the artist in question needs to brush up on his technique, we are complaining about how the artist, and the editor, are focusing on the woman as a sex object above all other considerations of form and logic.

When we complain about how a female superhero, or villain, is drawn in cheesecake poses regardless of the content of the scene, we are not complaining that the artist in question sucks at drawing women, we are complaining about how the artist, and the editor, are focusing on the woman as a sex object above all considerations of what the scene requires.

When we complain about how a female superhero, or villain, is drawn in shrink-wrap costumes (guys, really, spandex doesn’t work that way with belly buttons, I don’t care how tight it is) or is showing way too much skin, or we complain that women don’t really flounce around their apartments alone in skimpy lingerie, we are complaining about how the artist, and the editor, are focusing on the woman as a sex object above all considerations of character, plot, and the simple reality of how women actually act and what women actually wear.

You may see a theme here.