Jumping the gun? From my own subjective experience, very few people go to see movies on the Christmas. Today, however, the theater was absolutely packed. Maybe that bodes well for THE SPIRIT and maybe it doesn’t but I think you should wait until Monday before proclaiming DOA.

A lot of us were a little… um.. busy on December 25th. It was sort of a holiday. Even your own Corey Henson was busy NOT going to the movies yet staying home and judging them anyway.

Plenty of people found time to go see Marley & Me on Thursday, so I don’t think I’m jumping the gun. I do think people would rather spend their money going to see family movies instead of a movie starring an obscure comic book character this time of year.

Just a note to Mr. Peace: Christmas Day is typically considered an extremely busy movie day. But I’m sure Mr. Henson still loved the condescension you managed to bring to your ignorance.

I worked at a movie theater for several years and sometimes my family and I catch a flick later in the day on Xmas. We didn’t go this year, but I can tell you from past experience that Xmas Day IS a rather busy day for moviegoing. Usually it’s the shows that run later in the day that are the busiest. People get done opening presents and eating dinner and then they head out to the theater. It’s the same way with Thanksgiving.

Also, I would think the fact that the studios release so many big films on Xmas Day would be an indication that they consider it to be a very profitable decision. Granted, The Spirit probably is one that many people may overlook because they don’t know much about the character/storyline, but it also had a lot of competition to go up against.

“The Spirit debuted in 2,509 theaters for an average gross of $1,525 per theater on its first day. Compare that to Punisher: War Zone, which averaged $1,703 per screen in 2,508 theaters during its entire opening weekend.”

I’m trying to get what the comparison is here. The Spirit basically made the same as the Punisher’s opening weekend in one day, with three days left in the weekend. And they’re comparable how?

The Spirit probably looks like it will top out around $30 million. Definitely not a hit. Might not be a bomb either if the budget is small. But, you didn’t need the actual box office figures to tell you that since most predictions had The Spirit at around $12 million for its four day opening.

No I think there will be a difference with Watchmen, only from the fact that the trailers have been so well recieved . The Spirit should have done better than it did only because of the cast. However as a fan of the Spirit, I didn’t recognize him on screen. It was Miller’s take on the character. Not a slam just , he played it wrong. The Spirit isn’t a Superhero and he made him into one. Aside from the mask, It should have been a detective story.

Calling it DOA after one day is jumping the gun imo.

Would you have called it quits for MASH, Chers & Sienfeld after theirr first low rated seasons as well? Wasn’t Titantic almost considered a flop when it first came out.

And as for your non-action bias for X-mas day – please note that your family dog movie opened in 1000 more theates than Spirit did.

And also note that the 6 movies above Sppirit starred people like Brad Pitt, Tom Cruise, Adam Sandler, Jim Carey, Will Smith, etc.

If the movie’s a flop – it’s a flop – but c’mon – give it a chance first.

Films historically earn great deals of money when opened on Christmas Day. Like some of Pierce Brosnan’s 007 and Titanic.

The Spirit probably would have done better if it had not been released against such stiff competition on Christmas Day. Family films (Marley & Me) and big stars (Brad Pitt) usually rule the holidays. Also, the Spirit just didn’t get very good reviews(31 on Metacritic/17 Rotten Tomatoes). I agree with Henson, this movie is DOA.

>>>This doesn’t bode well for WATCHMEN.

>Aside from the alleged botched ending, and the initial Fox legal >victory, the box-office trends are much clear : comic book movies >NOT featuring well-known properties are things people are finding >less worth spending their time with.

If the skyrocketing of the TPB sales just after the realease of the first trailer than “Watchmen” will be pretty successful, maybe even be the most successful comic book movie.
“The Spirit” on the other hand – I only know the Darwyn Cooke issues and juding from those crappy trailers I have ZERO interest in watching this movie. Zero. Obviously I wasn’t the only one.

You don’t have to see the beginning or end of a trend in every box office report. Sometimes bad movies bomb and good movies succeed.

Hate Directive, there’s no correlation between The Spirit and Watchmen. The Spirit was poorly marketed and from what I’ve read, poorly made. Watchmen has been marketed pretty well so far slowly building a strong buzz both inside and outside the comics community. The Spirit was helmed by an inexperienced director while Watchmen can claim to be from the director of 300 and Dawn of the Dead, both financially successful and well made films.

Copies of the Watchmen trade paperback and hardcover (it’s not a graphic novel people) are flying off the shelves and I saw plenty of parents buying them for their older kids at the LCS and bookstores near my house.

Watchmen may not be a monster hit but I’ll be surprised if it tanks. The Fox lawsuit has nothing to do with it’s quality and will be settled long before the movie is released. Fox doesn’t really want to block its distribution, they just want a piece of the pie and why would they want that if they thought it was going to bomb?

Good.

Hopefully this would-be trend of “Sin City”-style movies by Miller will be nipped in the bud.

Neither the new Punisher movie nor the Spirit look that great to me, neither of them are movies whose success I particularly care about, but I have to say that there is absolutely nothing positive about the whole “the opening weekend is everything, and if you don’t want to brave the crowds and you wait, you not only might miss out on seeing it at all, you can also be blamed for your lack of support when it fails” state of affairs that things have come to over the last several years.
There is nothing in the world that can get me into a theatre on an opening weekend no matter what the movie, it’s just too hellish, and just as many good movies that could have benefited from a little word-of-mouth build-up over time have been killed by the current crappy system as have just plain flops that deserved their fate.

Frank Miller must concentrate in Sin City 2 and that’s it. Peace.

next we can see him mess up buck rogers. miller only does good on his own comic work inspired films. get him on daredevil 2 ans dark knight returns adaptations!

As a former movie theater usher, I can tell you that Thanksgiving and Christmas are the two biggest days of the entire year. People get together with their families, but they really don’t want to talk to them, so…

The Spirit should never have opened on Christmas day. If it bombs, it’s not really “disappointing” as that would imply that people expected it to do well. It’s a movie that’s billed as “From the creator of Sin City and 300″, both of which were rated R and filled with violence. The trailers are centered around sex and violence. I thought it was going to be rated R myself. Christmas is generally a bigger day for family films.

Also, The Spirit faces stiff competition. Jim Carrey’s “Yes Man” is out and performing well, as is Will Smith’s “Seven Pounds”. Adam Sandler’s “Bedtime Stories”, Jennifer Aniston’s “Marley & Me”, and Tom Cruise’s “Valkyrie” all also opened on Christmas. So you have The Spirit with less star power, a rookie director, and marketed towards the Sin City audience, up against 2 family films, 2 powerhouse stars in Smith and Carrey, and Tom Cruise’s quasi-historical WWII film.

How can its performance be disappointing? It never had a chance.

Right, because Sin City and 300, comic book movies without well-known properties, did poorly. And Watchmen hasn’t had the buzz about being the greatest graphic novel ever for how long now?

As to the “botched” ending, if it still accomplishes the same goal, what does it matter if we get rid of the space squid?

No, the only thing that will kill Watchmen is fox.

Maybe they’ll get someone qualified and remake it in a decade or so.

@Hate Directive

I think you’re underestimating the notability of “Watchmen”. It’s certainly heads and shoulders above “The Spirit” in terms of mainstream visibility. It’s been named the greatest graphic novel of all time by Time magazine, and many other outlets. Most libraries have a copy of “Watchmen” – there’s a reason it’s a summer opening and these other two films were holiday openings.

“The Spirit” and “Punisher: War Zone” aren’t doing well because they’re both terrible movies. The box office reports are clear – terrible comic book movies aren’t doing as well as NOT terrible comic book movies — that’s really it at this point.

His “comeuppance?”

I’m sorry–and you are? Oh. Right. Some anonymous guy on the internet.

What has Frank Miller done that he warrants a “comeuppance?” Seriously. What the hell has he done that he somehow deserves to have a movie that he spent several years of his life crafting, about a subject that he obviously cares passionately about, wind up crashing and burning?

You, who stands so bravely behind his words that he has to hide behind cutesy fake names, feel the need to label Frank Miller with condescending nicknames? You know what? Ants don’t get to condescend to eagles.

Presuming you even saw the movie: Perhaps you feel you didn’t get your money’s worth. Y’know what? I feel the same way. I paid admission, same as you. Same as everybody. I could have gone to a free advance screening. I was invited. Instead I chose to wait so that I could support the producers, who are friends of mine. But there is absolutely no way that I feel that Frank somehow had it coming. Because all Frank Miller has ever done is try to produce the best stories he is capable of, and he signs his name to everything he writes, which is more than I can say for you.

Even when Frank Miller falls, he falls from heights that most of us cannot hope to achieve, myself not excluded. If it’s too much to think that you should show at least a modicum of respect for someone who has devoted his life to this medium, then at least acknowledge that the reason you’re doing the happy dance over the failure of someone who has achieved more in his life thus far is than you likely ever will in the entirety of yours is because you’re unspeakably petty and ungrateful and ungracious.

PAD

Friday’s numbers: 9th place, $2.635 million, $1048 per screen.

I went and saw it on Christmas day. The theatre wasn’t packed, but it was full. I really enjoyed it. Maybe all the reviews that crapped all over it lowered my expectations, or maybe it was just a good movie.

It was just a lot of fun to watch. And, the dad from the Wonder Years played Commissioner Dolan! How cool is that!

I saw it and it was ok…lmao…my friend got a good laugh when she said she “was the only chick in the theather”. Which she was. I have to say that the one thing about the movie that I did not like was the fact that I was just waiting for some of the Sin City characters to just pop into the picture. Mr. Miller please…please…PLEASE….change the fricking style of your movies before you even touch Buck Rodgers. I am going to say in advance that I am not going to even touch it if it’s got the look and style and production quality of Sin City and the Spirit.

My partner have a bit of a tradition of going to the movies on Christmas, and I made plans to see The Spirit this year. I usually make a point to check Rotten Tomatoes before I go see a quetionable movie, and the Spirit has a 16% freshness rating on a scale of 1-100. This year we stayed in and watched The Orphanage instead.

“Don’t you just love it when someone writes so amazingly condescendingly….when knowing absolutely NOTHING about the topic? D. Peace: Pwned.” – GT Randall

OK, sort of but not really. The only thing I was wrong about was my guess that maybe the low returns were due to people being busy with other things on the Holiday itself. Yes, I was aware that movies tend to do well over the weekend entire but I didn’t know that the best day is the actual 25th of December.

I only advocated waiting a bit before jumping on the “this movie is officially dead” bandwagon. I never said it was going to rise like a phoenix from the ashes, just that you might be premature. Another thing I never did was make a value judgment based on the quality of the film because I didn’t see it yet. The expert on writing condescendingly while knowing absolutely nothing about a topic would probably be Corey Henson, who, as I said, wrote a negative review without ever seeing the movie. Yes, the movie might suck and yes, it might have done poorly but standards at this blog aren’t much better.

I appreciate Peter David’s assessment. I also agree with his disgust at people who pointlessly revel in the suffering of others. Maybe THE SPIRIT was terrible but this level of schadenfreude is disgraceful.

Keep it classy, Blog@

This movie will only make any money in it’s first couple of days after which it will sink like a piece of lead in a large body of water…it’s awful, I had to fight the urge to leave during the movie many times…and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure I saw other people get up and leave in the middle…good times….Frank Miller should have quit with movies after Robocop 2.

The movie was horrible.

Well, I paid my money to see it Christmas day and it was horrible. Utterly god-awful terrible. As a casual fan of The Spirit character (I haven’t read NEARLY as much as is out there) I see it as an insult to the character and a slap-on-the-face to Eisner’s legacy. If Miller was as close as he supposedly was to Will Eisner, he would have never done this kind of thing.

Yeah. It’s THAT BAD.

Yeah…everyone gripes about ASB&R…yet it’s still near the top of the rankings every time it comes out. Why is that you think? Maybe people want to see just how bad it’ll get. Or it’s pretty good. Are you still supporting the book Alex?

im sad to hear this about the movie..first the punisher and now this?? it cant be a coincidence that 2 comic movies flopped at christmas time. even those both these 2 movies feature characters that are not as popular as the big guns as spidey or batman, they should have done well. i guess its not the season for these movies. i bet both these movies are good enough for most of the fas out there to go oand see just not in this season. the spirit looked good, but im pissed that 2 cook book movies have flopped..i hope it doesnt start a trend

Amen Fanboy Menace. I was just thinking pretty much the same thing, though it’s always been PAD’s M.O. to get attention through controversy and arguing whether through his news articles or online. The Davids, Byrnes, and other Old School guys need to be happy us “ants” made them who they are today. They all could have been Chuck Austen…

Just a quick note on the tying of this to Punisher: War Zone — The Spirit may not be doing *well*, but it has grossed more in its first three days than that Punisher film did in its entire run (War Zone ran out of theaters in less than three weeks). And The Spirit still has a week with kids off school coming up, with one day when just about everyone gets off work. And that’s followed by a weekend when there are literally -no- new films going into national release. I’m not saying it’s going to be profitable, but it ain’t dead yet.

“Ants don’t get to condescend to eagles.”

“Is that what comic fans are then, Peter? Ants?”

No, but thanks for ascribing sentiments that I didn’t express.

“And the pros are the eagles? Just wanting to get some clarification on that.”

I don’t think you actually do. I think you actually want to muddy the waters some more.

“And of course then there’s the John Byrne argument that anyone that posts on the internet and doesn’t use their real name is a gutless turd and really doesn’t get to have an opinion. Can we officially label this as the ‘Grumpy Old Comic Pro Defense’ now when opinion isn’t going their way on these confangled internets?”

I can’t speak for John, but personally, I prefer to label it the opinion of those who have respect for the principles upon which this country was founded. The rights to free expression that anonymous posters enjoy were established by men who risked their lives to sign their name to a “treasonous” document. I suspect the Declaration of Independence would have carried considerably less weight if it had borne names such as “FluffyBunny228.” So I tend to think if someone has something to say–particularly if it involves attacking someone else–then he stands up like an adult and attaches his name to his feelings. You, “Fanboy Menace,” obviously disagree.

“Instead I chose to wait so that I could support the producers, who are friends of mine.”

“Is that why you have continually come out to attack people online that haven’t had favorable opinions of this movie?”

And where have I done that, exactly? On my own website, where I posted my unfavorable opinion of the movie? Here, where I said I didn’t like it? Anywhere else on line, where I haven’t posted about the film at all? One post on one thread defines “continually” now?

But you know what? I think Teddy Roosevelt said it much better than I ever can:

“It is not the critic who counts, not the man who points out how the strong man stumbled, or where the doer of deeds could have done better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs and comes short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause, who at best knows achievement and who at the worst if he fails at least fails while daring greatly so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.”

I think “cold and timid souls” pretty much sums up anonymous snipers.

PAD

Comic book movies will do fine as long as they’re good movies.

The coincidence here is that both “the spirit” and “punisher” are BAD movies.

Perhaps this will be a nice wake-up call for Frank Miller to stop doing crap like DKSA, ASB&R and now the Spirit movie and get back to doing good work – he can do it.

Excuse me Fanboy Menace (if that is your real name and if it is I’d love to see your drivers license) but your reading comprehension is for dried spit.

Have you read Mr. David’s review of the Spirit that he put out in public at his website and signed his name to? No? Didn’t think so.

The Spirit works splendidly as an nihilist comedy or it did for me.

“What a pompous response from Peter David, teeming with arrogance at every turn. ”

Darn. And here I was going for arrogance in the roads leading up to the turns as well. But at least I achieved my quota of pomposity.

“It certainly is annoying to continuously read venomous, hateful rants from alleged comic book fans seemingly delighting in the failure of commercially successful creators.”

Y’think?

“However, the ‘ants’ to ‘eagles’ bit, apart from being nonsensical,”

And yet accurate.

“is so condescending that, if anything, it winds up being a sort of warped and mirrored reflection of the same venomous and hateful diatribe, with the internet commentator now in the crosshairs. ”

Well, yes. That’s what I was going for. That’s what I typically do: Respond in kind to kind. And I always get a kick out of it when people bleat over how mean I’ve been to them when, typically, all I’ve done is act in exactly the same manner.

“That’s not a great way to make your point, by becoming the jackass you can’t stand, and reaffirms a rather salient aphorism–if you engage with idiots, you make an idiot out of yourself.”

Yes, but I’m actually okay with that. Because some will get what I’m going for, which is all anyone can ever hope to achieve. Others will fumfaraw and complain about how mean I am, and that’s fine too.

PAD

rook Says:

December 28th, 2008 at 12:28 am
This movie will only make any money in it’s first couple of days after which it will sink like a piece of lead in a large body of water…it’s awful, I had to fight the urge to leave during the movie many times…and what’s worse is I’m pretty sure I saw other people get up and leave in the middle…good times….Frank Miller should have quit with movies after Robocop 2.
—————————————————————–
then we would not have had great films like Sin city and the 100. truth is has got to better the Fantastic Four

happy new year

I’m not sure I understand all the venom directed at Frank Miller. What’s with the sanguine joy people get from seeing projects like this fail?
Me, I don’t get that worked up by movies based on comics in the first place, and I do my best to judge them on their own merits. Haven’t seen THE SPIRIT, and probably won’t based on the fairly unanimous disapproval, but I take no pleasure in its failure. Nor do I get why Frank Miller deserves some sort of “comeuppance” for making a movie people disliked.

A few months ago, Peter, you were on The Beat if I’m not mistaken chastising and deriding fans over complaining about the marketing and previewed material for this movie. It is in fact a pattern, unless you just make it a habit to jump around comic sites taking cheap shots at the fanbase. It’s either that or for some reason you’ve personally taken on the task of defending Miller’s good name online wherever it happens to be besmirched. Which raises a whole other set of questions I won’t touch but I digress. So again, was this fan an “ant” because he felt Miller is justly being taken down a notch with the performance of The Spirit or because he isn’t a ‘great man of accomplishment’ like the “eagles” such as yourself and Miller who write comic stories for a living? And instead of over-shooting your response with quotes by Roosevelt and rousing tales of the sacrifices of the founding fathers you could just try answering my question this time.

Also, I could use my real name, but since I’m not a person who has made my career one that is in the public eye it wouldn’t make a single bit of difference. Unless you are in my family or a friend you wouldn’t know me from Adam. I’m just a working stiff whose job actually involves the “dust and sweat and blood” that Roosevelt spoke of in your quote. Just one of those hard-working guys that spends his money to make your privileged career possible. But since we are doing quotes to prop up our arguments, wasn’t it John Lennon who said a “working class hero is something to be”? But then that would disrupt the illusion that some pros seem to have that assigns internet criticism to just a handful of loud-mouthed, self-loathing fanboy “ants” that simply like to complain because their lives are empty shells or whatever. Personally I see it more as a reasonable response to insular, arrogant, self-important creative types that don’t know better than to bite the hand that feeds them.

then we would not have had great films like Sin city and the 100. truth is has got to better the Fantastic Four

happy new year
_____——______—–_______——-

it’s not… not even close believe it or not!

the only way i can describe it, besides echoing what every other negative reviewer, is it felt like pages and pages of story were simply removed.

To me it would was the equivalent of telling someone how great Watchmen is and giving them only #7 to read… they’d read it and go, “huh?”

Im not really hopeful for this movie but I’ll give it a go and support my medium, I mean you gotta give the guy credit for bringing a not exactly mainstream work and exposing it to the public eye.
Sure it looks grating to my eye and I really am not a fan of ASB&R (but I think thats due to Jim Lee and Miller not being a good pair) but Miller has always pushed dove and tried new things.
Batman Year One
Sin City
Ronin
His entire Daredevil run.

C’mon he has given so much to this medium he dose not deserve to be shot down and hoped towards failure by those who buy all his work?

Opinions yes, but do you have to be assholes?

I”m not quite sure, “Fandom Menace,” where to start with your monumental pile of disingenuous nonsense.

Could it be, perhaps, your trying to equate people whose writings consist entirely of anonymous internet rantings with the likes of Woody Allen, Mark Twain et al who were easily identifiable public figures and simply–for various reasons–chose to adapt pen or stage names. Especially considering that their true names and C.V. were public knowledge?

Or could it be your lengthy and boring excuse for your own timorousness when it comes to the simple act of signing your name to your opinions? “It wouldn’t make a single bit of difference.” Obviously it would, because you don’t do it.

My comments on The Beat had nothing to do with Frank, and were in fact exactly the same comments that I made elsewhere about fan reaction to “Watchmen,” and to “Spider-Man,” and going all the way back to Tim Burton’s “Batman.” It’s the same thing I always say when fans ask me, “What do you think of the (fill in the blank) movie” when it’s not due out for six months. What I say, then and now, is that it is ridiculous for fans to go nuclear about trailers, preliminary photographs from the set, design drawings, rumors they’ve heard from their second cousin’s brother who knows this guy who was an extra for two days, etc. My opinion is that I have no opinion on it. Nothing matters until it’s up on the screen in your local multiplex. THEN you form an opinion.

As for your ant “question,” I’ve already answered it; your assertion that I haven’t doesn’t make it true. But obviously I haven’t done so to your satisfaction. I suspect that’s because you’re not interested in an answer so much as looking for more things to complain about. But I will endeavor to answer yet again, perhaps simply enough for your requirements:

His status as a comic book fan isn’t what makes him the ant in the equation. It’s expressing a petty attitude, reveling in the difficulties of another while referring to him in a condescending manner, sniping from anonymity while lacking the resolve to sign his own name to his opinions. It is, in short, the entire package of pathetically small-minded behavior that–for the purpose of the metaphor–made me refer to him as the smallest creature I could think of. Frank’s status as an eagle? I dunno: a high flying creature who people are trying to hunt into extinction? Whatever. It seemed to go nicely with ant.

“But then that would disrupt the illusion that some pros seem to have that assigns internet criticism to just a handful of loud-mouthed, self-loathing fanboy “ants” that simply like to complain because their lives are empty shells or whatever.”

I wouldn’t describe the whole of internet criticism in that way. I think it’s more of a case of when the ant hill fits…

PAD

Oh, and I forgot to add “Doctor Who” and “Battlestar Galactica” to the list of endeavors that fans announced ahead of time were going to suck. And it never stops. Go figure.

PAd

Memory does not, in fact, serve at all. I said, at various times, that Todd’s problems with Tony Twist were problems he brought upon himself, and they were. I said that I felt sorry for Todd because his inability to keep promises to Neil Gaiman had caused him so much grief. And I said that I wished Todd wouldn’t keep doing stuff like this to himself.

And I said it all with my name attached to my opinion.

Hardly the same thing.

PAD

Then one could also argue that Frank Miller putting out obviously shoddy work, or “parody” as some have rationalized, going all the way back to ,well, anything post-Sin City and collecting the huge paychecks from the legion of fans of his earlier works is offensive. If you think Miller is doing anything other than laughing all the way to the bank on his All-Star Batman work you are kidding yourself. To then also see those earlier works lavishly celebrated and adapted by the film community to much acclaim, only to have Miller himself turn around and rebuild one of the most respected works in comics in his own image? Well, sometimes you can smell a turd coming from a mile away. Sometimes just riding off of your earlier work catches up with you. And fans that feel betrayed by Miller’s turn to all things Hollywood and money may take some satisfaction in it all coming to fruition. All valid opinions expressed in public forums. What does this have to do with you, Peter, other than that you might be personally connected to those being “sniped”, or maybe more simply that you just like to argue?

And is that what it is then? That you great “eagles” are being internet sniped whenever you receive valid criticism? Again, it seems like you are aggrandizing your station. If a person doesn’t have a position to stand on or is able to articulate, most internet users are savvy enough to figure that out on their own and ignore them. But if valid point is being made, one with enough merit for you to stick your neck out over it, it seems foolish to endlessly argue it. Oh right, it’s mean ol’ fanboy “sniping”.

And again, the name issue. It really is the last defense of comic pros who like to argue online because they know the only power they have is their own name. Yes you run the risk of looking bad by attacking fans in various forums and signing your name, but you also have all the clout and privilege that comes along with being a “pro”. There are some like Kathleen up there who will come to your aid or back your opinion no matter what I say because she got some laughs from She-Hulk once and likes your website. God help us if John Byrne ever got up the guts to come out from behind his own personal fortress over at the Byrne Boards because we’d get his devoted legion of Byrne Victims along with the package. So yes, you have an important name and I do not. You’ve pointed that out over and over again. I’m just an ant remember? And I believe Mark Twain created his persona for the specific task of presenting himself as a writer and only years later did anyone care about Samuel Clemens. People online do the same I believe. I have nothing to hide, but then you couldn’t continue to distract the argument and use the clout of your pro status if you excepted that.

“Then one could also argue that Frank Miller putting out obviously shoddy work, or “parody” as some have rationalized, going all the way back to ,well, anything post-Sin City and collecting the huge paychecks from the legion of fans of his earlier works is offensive.”

One could if one were an idiot, I suppose. If nothing else, you can’t seem to keep your head wrapped around the notion that the legion of fans do not, in fact, give Frank huge paychecks. Publishers do that. Why do they do that? Because Frank’s work sells. I think THAT is what you find offensive, in which case your argument is with your fellow fans who buy his books, not with the guy producing it.

“If you think Miller is doing anything other than laughing all the way to the bank on his All-Star Batman work you are kidding yourself.”

I don’t think anyone here is qualified to speak with authority on Frank’s mindset. I mean, you can’t even accurately quote Liberace (it’s “cry all the way to the bank”) so why should you be considered an authority on Frank Miller?

” Well, sometimes you can smell a turd coming from a mile away. ”

And yet I read your post anyway.

“Sometimes just riding off of your earlier work catches up with you. And fans that feel betrayed by Miller’s turn to all things Hollywood and money may take some satisfaction in it all coming to fruition. All valid opinions expressed in public forums. What does this have to do with you, Peter, other than that you might be personally connected to those being “sniped”, or maybe more simply that you just like to argue?”

Is that the criteria required now? That it must have “something to do” with me? All opinions from all fans are welcome here, but mine is not? I have to somehow justify my existence here and my right to express my opinions–to say that someone else is full of crap or pretentious or cowardly–while everyone else’s presence is a God-given right? My my. And you call ME arrogant?

“And is that what it is then? That you great “eagles” are being internet sniped whenever you receive valid criticism?”

Just out of curiosity–was your favorite game as a child “Twister?” Because you’re twisting everything again. What touched off my original post was simply this: An anonymous poster referred to Frank’s name in a condescending manner and said he was receiving his “comeuppance.” That’s not valid criticism. That’s a guy on the internet being a jerk. I, in fact, offered plenty of criticism on my own board, a reality that you repeatedly ignore because it undercuts your premise that I’m going after people who didn’t like the film. No. I went after one jerk who was acting like a schmuck. And for the record: I don’t consider myself an eagle. I haven’t accomplished enough. A woodpecker, perhaps.

“Again, it seems like you are aggrandizing your station.”

Excuse me?

” If a person doesn’t have a position to stand on or is able to articulate, most internet users are savvy enough to figure that out on their own and ignore them.”

And I chose not to. So what’s YOUR problem with that, hmm? What does THAt have to do with YOU? Are you a sock puppet for the guy I criticized, perhaps? No way of knowing, really.

“And again, the name issue. It really is the last defense of comic pros who like to argue online because they know the only power they have is their own name.”

Uh…no. It’s the observation that it takes no guts to snipe from hiding.

“Yes you run the risk of looking bad by attacking fans in various forums and signing your name, but you also have all the clout and privilege that comes along with being a “pro”.”

So let me see if I understand it: You don’t attach your name to your postings because there’s nothing IN it for you? There’s no additional perks involved? The moral notion that someone stands behind his words, particularly when launching an attack, might have some meaning for you if you had some additional “privileges?”

Here’s a new notion for you: Privileges? They’re earned.

“So yes, you have an important name and I do not. You’ve pointed that out over and over again.”

Except I didn’t say that. Because you don’t get it: I’ve been signing my name to my opinions ever since I was a fan. Whether they were in fanzines, APAs, or what have you. I’ve always felt this way, and I’ve always taken the risks inherent in expressing potentially negative opinions. Indeed, the risks are even greater now because I have far more to lose. I don’t have an important name. I wrote things that people found to be important and they looked to see who wrote them.

“I’m just an ant remember? ”

I didn’t say that either. Unless you indeed are a sock puppet for the original poster, in which case…yeah, I did.

“And I believe Mark Twain created his persona for the specific task of presenting himself as a writer and only years later did anyone care about Samuel Clemens.”

Yeah. Right. Anonymous internet posters are on par with Mark Twain. And *I’m* the one with an inflated sense of self-importance?

“I have nothing to hide,”

Well, now we both know that’s not true.

” but then you couldn’t continue to distract the argument and use the clout of your pro status if you excepted that.”

That wasn’t distracting the argument. It was part OF the argument. The original point.

You done yet?

PAD

So if Frank Miller falls high enough he goes back through time, like Darkseid, right?

The linking is automatic then. Cool.

You know what, Anonymous Boy? You can make all the excuses for internet anonymity you want–and you certainly do have a raft of them. And at the end of the day, “excuses” is all they will ever be. All they are–all you will ever be–is some frightened little guy hiding behind a computer screen, unwilling to put yourself on the line while attacking others who do.

“I don’t believe I’ve once called into question your stance on the quality of the film. I could really care less what you thought of it.”

Well, first of all, it’s “I couldn’t care less.” Although I suppose that by your definition of the world, I should just shrug because a lot of people get that wrong and that I should simply accept that wrong is the new right. But I tend not to do that. As for not having called into question my stance on the film, that’s of far less interest to me than when you said this:

“Is that why you have continually come out to attack people online that haven’t had favorable opinions of this movie?”

That is called “a lie.” The only reason I mentioned my own opinions of the film was to address directly your false assertion.

“I’ve not begrudged anyone their opinion here, but you have.”

And that is also a lie. I have not begrudged anyone for having an opinion. I begrudged the opinion that they had. It’s a huge difference. It’s called “disagreeing with someone.” I hear it’s not exactly unprecedented on the internet. Basically I felt that some anonymous guy was acting like a jerk. I called him on it. Your response was to say that he was entirely right to be taking joy in another person’s failures. You feel that petty behavior is okey-doke. I felt it was–well–petty.

“Just like John Byrne has discovered you can only throw your weight around online so long before the fans catch on and stop buying your work.”

Yeah, that’s really why John’s been having problems: Because of fans on the internet.

Do you understand that fans bitching on the internet have NOTHING TO DO WITH SALES? Not sales of individuals, not sales of titles. If they did, all the mutant books would be in the toilet, the Vertigo line would be the top-selling line, and All Star Batman and Robin would have been long canceled. If John Byrne were drawing “Amazing Spider-Man,” fans would be buying John Byrne’s work. So don’t tell me what John’s comments about the fans have cost him, because it’s nonsense.

“You’ve offended me, and not on just one statement but as an entire approach to online fans over a period years. Good intentions or not, any condescension toward the people who pay your checks is dangerous territory, sir.”

You’re still not getting the whole “you don’t sign my checks” thing, are you. I do, however, appreciate the implied threat. I get that a lot. Right wingers, for instance, have endeavored to get me fired off titles because they didn’t like my leftist opinions. Not opinions expressed in the comic, you understand; opinions expressed on my blog. I’ve been told again and again that I should just keep my big mouth shut lest I offend people. Funny thing: I don’t do well with threats. I’ll say what I have to say and if it rebounds to my detriment, well, that’s the risk I’ll take. In other words: I’ve openly said stuff that pissed off top people at major publishers who DO sign my checks. So if you’re waiting for me to be afraid of YOU, well…you’re in for a long wait, whoever you are.

PAD

The more I think about, the ant can be condescending to the eagle, but why should the eagle care? The eagle is so high up there, he probably doesn’t even hear the ants laughing at him. Granted, with the movie being as bad as it was, there would be a lot of ants clicking away so maybe the Eagle hears it, but to the Eagle he probably hears “Boo-urns” as opposed to “Boooo”

“Sure … just look at the success of VALKYRIE … nothing says the holidays like a plot to kill Hitler.”

Hitler hears there’s a plot to kill him. So he goes to a fortune teller and asks her what his future holds. She looks into her crystal ball and intones, “You will die on a holiday.” Hitler says, “Which holiday?” She looks at him and says, “Any day you die will be a holiday.”

PAD

Peter David:
“She looks at him and says, “Any day you die will be a holiday.”

Exactly!
Dad: “Come on, kids! We’re all going to grandma’s house to kill Hitler!”
Kids: “Yayyyyy!”

“I was kind of hoping there was a scene in Valkyrie where after the bomb goes off (and if I recall my German history, the table it was under was so huge and thick it muffled the blast) and he’s okay, Hitler turns to the camera and says ‘They try…man, how they try…’”

Or he turns to the other Nazis and says, “If you think THAT was a bomb, wait until they make the movie!”

Fanboy Menace Dude you are lame.
Peter David you write awesome stuff but come on stop throwing your name around. Neither one of you are making good points. Why do you care? Frank Miller is still awesome and has done more for comics than most people. Who cares his movie bombed?

I’ve been reading comments left by Fanboy Menace over on The Beat for a very long time now. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t seem like “an anonymous little guy hiding behind a computer screen” to me.

People use pseudonyms for many different reasons. For all we know, Fanboy Menace uses a pseudonym for the same reason Gail Simone does. Who cares? I don’t even understand what this has to do with the subject at hand. The subject is supposed to be about how poorly The Spirit did at the box office. Instead this has spiraled into an argument on online anonymity. An argument that might have been interesting in 1995.

Oh yeah, Happy New Year folks!

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