So, I should start this off with something or the other about how this blog or post or response shouldn’t and doesn’t reflect on the views and attitudes of Zenescope Entertainment? But in all honestly, that feels a bit pretentious and too similar to the pre-opening credits of the latest offering of DVD/Blu-ray madness that hits the movie rental stands each and every Tuesday. So casting all that aside and knowing that not everyone will agree or disagree with what I have to say, I’ll just come right out with it.
I could spend the next few paragraphs talking about what Zenescope has planned for 2009 and the great series that we have currently hitting the stands, playing up what has become the norm for the standard in the ongoing Internet hype machine that is comics. And more than likely, I will a tad bit later, but for now I’d rather talk about other things that matter to me and maybe to you. Things that we can talk about and have a conversation over instead of the regular “look look look and yes, that looks cool or no that sucks.” And while I may jump about subjects (whether it’s comics I’m reading and digging or music or the economy or whatever floats in my Grey matter at any given time) a bit like a hummingbird on a crack binge, it’ll at least be an interesting couple minutes worth of reading (with pretty pictures of Zenescope goodness) material to pass the time. So with that said…
The last issue of Batman RIP felt like the biggest c— tease of all time, and in all things, standard with what you would expect from a “string the reader along type mentality” that has run so prevalent throughout the industry as of late. I mean, how many parts did this thing run? A decent amount of cash spent for what was the equivalent of an amateur hand job that doesn’t come close to getting the job done and leaves you with an aching set of blue balls. (Yes, I like pornographic metaphors) A story that doesn’t really leave you wanting more but instead makes you wish you had tried reading something (cough Beyond cough Wonderland) else. At least when you got to the end of Knightfall and Knights End, Batman either had his back broken or there was a brand new Batman. Or Death in the Family, where there was at least a very real possibility that Batman was going to off the Joker once and for all. At least if I pay an arm and a leg in an economy where you literally have to live in fear with where your $2.99 is spent and where it isn’t…at least give a loyal fan and reader a pay off. The “bomb going off and missing bodies” ending kind of says it all that Batman RIP didn’t really live up to its namesake (unless you want to go as far as saying it was a way to “RIP” off the fans and a quick at pulling the masses in for one quick peek ala Captain America or the Death of Supes).
Again it’s just my opinion, but it all just seems to be such a common fare where big league crossovers are now the norm and the promise of radical change never seems to hold true when all is said and done. Look at Civil War. It was all a build up to see Captain America killed in his own title. I understand the need to sell comics and string the readers along for as long as that wallet can hold out, but can’t you just tell great stories and do that anyway without the hype machine running over everything we as readers hold dear? Comics did it for years before the Internet even came along, and I know it’s a much different time but still…remember reading Daredevil, or Swamp Thing, or whatever book really did it for you and telling anyone who would listen about it? “Hey, did you hear, they just killed off all the X-men and Apocalypse is taking over!” I can’t tell you how many people got hooked into comics when they did the Age of Apocalypse over at Marvel, or when DC “had some upstart kill the Joker and Supes retired” in Kingdom Come.
Promoting a comic where Batman might die, knowing that the reader knows he’s not going to die, is annoying as shit. It’s even more so given that I fell right into DC’s trap, and brought all the issues knowing I knew what I knew before I even picked the books up. And all on the faith that somehow, the awesomeness that is Grant Morrison would shine through. He did it on X-Men, Animal Man, Doom Patrol . . . but you have to wonder how much hand-tied DC higher-ups handcuffs came into play. I mean, Didio knows his shit, if he didn’t he wouldn’t have a job, but I guess we’ll never know; there are times where you have to wonder what the end result would be if the powers that be just let go and let the stories that they hire these guys to tell, just got told. And what’s worse is that as long as these things sell hundreds of thousands of units, they’ll just keep doing it because from a business aspect it makes sense even if the story…for lack of better words…meanders. It had some good points, but overall, not enough to keep me reading Bats any longer.
Then again, maybe I should give it all another read and see if there was something there that I missed. I’ll be the first to admit that my favorite story in comics is Watchmen and that the first time I read it in junior high, I found it boring and not at all interesting, so maybe this is like that. Or maybe it’s like The Happening and every time I see it…it just gets worse and worse. Who knows?
Now this might be just me stringing you along and trying to get you to check out the latest Zenescope titles that do give you a pay-off worth the bang of your well earned buck, but the fanboy in me can’t help but be annoyed because I love these f—ing characters. And when you hear Grant is coming to play, you expect it to be for keeps. But I guess we should have known better, considering that given enough time, companies will wipe the board of everything that has come before in order to tell what’s new and fresh (ahem, Brand New cough Day cough cough) and minty Hollywood clean. But at the end of the day, it’s the nature of comics, especially those of the iconic immortal nature like Supes, Spidey, etc, etc. so it’s not like you didn’t know what the deal was coming in.
So with all that shit talking and opinion voicing, you might think me a troll with nothing good to say. Ah ha. That’s where you’re wrong. Mary Jane Loves Spider-Man Vol 2 is the shit. I just love this book to no end. It’s like the Chasing Amy version of a comic without the dick and fart jokes and lesbians, but considering it’s Terry Moore of Strangers in Paradise fame writing the book, given enough time, and Marvel willing, lesbian Nazi clone assassin Skrull warriors will find their way into the book and have a massive all girl orgy that will change comics forever…or at least one can hope. But regardless, of all the Marvel books I read, I love this (USM comes a close second, as does the guilty pleasure of reading the dumbed down HULK) more than anything else. Nothing really even happens in each issue and it’s still great. Just love the hell out of it.
So hopefully, that gets a few more people over to that book, as looking at the numbers recently, it’s not selling too big. And that book should be selling a f—load more, but sometimes that’s just how the cookie crumbles in a non-Wolverine title.
Oy, did I mention I finally got the new Kayne West album and the not new Katy Perry CD? Both of which I love. I recently got into a long discussion about the reason behind the new KW CD and what it means to evolve and stretch one’s self as an artist, and the flip side which is the fact that the fans expect a certain product from creators that they support. IE: If you’re a Britney Spears fan (and there are a few out there) the last thing you’re expecting to hear is Brit pretending to be KORN. So the fact that Kayne sounds more like T-Pain than Kayne might be discomforting for those expecting the norm, but if that was the case Outkast would never have become the trend setting, masterful unit it has become to date. Pink would still be whatever the hell it was she was before she evolved and Jay Z would still be just a rapper instead of a Mogul. All I ask is to be entertained regardless of how you do it and for my tastes don’t let me down; and I have to say that after getting past the whole voice modulation thing and knowing that a lot of this came from Kayne dealing with his mother’s unfortunate death, I can feel it enough to get some decent writing out of listening to it for the twentieth time and as a listener you can’t really ask for more than that.
And there really is something to be said for weight loss and alcoholism (see, I told you this was going to be jumping all over the place) as both have been something I have struggled with over the years. I do love losing weight, and being sober, but f— if I don’t write my undisciplined ass off when I’m binging and drinking my fourth glass of rum and coke (and now that the coke is gone, rum and orange juice which isn’t half as bad as it sounds once you have enough liquor sloshing about within you). Even as I polish this article off a day later in a much more sober state of mind, a cold glass of beer still sounds appealing.
Not that this had much to do with anything, other than I enjoy knowing that the people behind the scenes making the comics I love to read are people just the same as you and me, so I thought it be cool to give you a peek behind the curtain and see what the wizard really looks like. And speaking of the Wizard…
Troy is a rockstar who missed his calling in porn, but that’s a story for another day.
Till then and until next time I remain,
Raven Gregory
Raven Gregory is the Executive Editor of Zenescope Entertainment and recovering alcoholic who really should stay sober more than he currently does. But he has a fun job editing titles such as Grimm Fairy Tales, 1001 Arabian Knights: The Adventures of Sinbad, Beyond Wonderland, Straw Men, The Living Corpse, The Chronicles of Herbert West, and the upcoming Salem’s Daughter and Stingers coming out in 2009 of which you probably knew coming in that there was a mandatory plug to follow. He also writes of bunch of comics but that again, is a story or an interview for another day.
These great titles can be found at www.zenescope.com and more of Raven Gregory’s madscape antics can be viewed at www.myspace.com/ravengregory
December 5th, 2008 at 5:08 pm
Good gravy, what fresh hell is this?
December 5th, 2008 at 10:26 pm
You suck at the internet dude. Also, try having taste and not letting your blatant disrespect of women ruin an article that had potential.
December 6th, 2008 at 4:21 am
Well its always nice to have a publisher whose work serves a warning flag “Do Not Talk or Associate With People Who Buy This”…
December 6th, 2008 at 7:25 am
Er…I don’t wish to be rude, but was there a point to this, other than a feeble excuse to show boobies, and bloviate? If you are going to be the new fellow coming in, a LITTLE more class would be appreciated.
December 6th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Wow. Who thought this was a good idea?
December 6th, 2008 at 11:35 am
New Blogger pick FAIL.
Goodbye, Blog@Newsarama. I can’t read this kind of crap.
December 6th, 2008 at 12:24 pm
Even beyond the crudeness and random chatter, couldn’t you at least preview the post to make sure that the tacky images are sized correctly?
December 6th, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Greetings, all.
I wanted to stop by to make a couple of points. First, in regard to the image sizing: there was a problem with the files themselves that caused distortion to several browsers. It looks fine in the Google viewer and other instruments, but stretched and distorted elsewhere. We took the images down to look at the problem. Thanks to those who noted the wonkiness; I appreciate any feedback about those issues.
Let me open this second point by noting that Raven’s opinions are his own, and I’m not endorising and refuting anything by addressing the reaction. And I’ll be asking sincere questions. Thus, my words on the reaction:
Secondly: It appears that several people have a problem with this post, and I can’t, from most comments, discern what their individual problem is. We have a “you suck”, we have a “Goodbye, Blog@Newsarama”, and we even have former contributors blogging about it in their LiveJournal. My question here: if you have a problem with the post, why not clearly define it? If you have a problem with something Raven said, why not ask him about it, or offer a contrary view of the point? I see some insults or melodramatic departure messages, but I don’t see anyone engaging Raven directly about what bothered them.
Was it the images, which were covers of Zenescope books, which is why they accompanied the blog by their Executive Editor? Was it something in particular that Raven said? Did you like Batman RIP and disagree with his assessment, or was it something else? If you think that you have a better point of view or superior moral ground on an issue, how are you supposed to relate and instruct if you don’t attempt communication beyond “you suck” or “I quit”?
To be fair, Eldi commented on “disrepect of women”. Was that something you read in the post, or was that an opinion of the art? Sallyp, whose comments I enjoy from Everydayislikewednesday, mentioned class, but I’m not sure of her direction there. What exactly did you mean, Sally? I’d sincerely like to know.
If any of you think that Raven did something wrong or inappropriate, why not open a discussion on that? I think that one problem with the internet is that we’re all (and yes, I said “we’re all”) occasionally quick to throw jabs and retreat to our safe corner where our regular readers and supporters can pat our backs and assure us of our genius. Why NOT open a debate and really talk about it? Why not say, “Raven, I don’t think that your post was appropriate, and here’s why.” Why not say, “The art bothers me, and here’s why”? THAT could be a good, solid, instructive reading experience for the blogger, the rest of the audience, and maybe even for you. I’m not talking about a slapfight. I’m talking about a reasoned, vigorous debate over points of contention. We should be able to have that here. As long as you come armed with points and reason, you are welcome to argue with me all day long. And as long as you don’t randomly insult our people or other posters, then you can disagree in the spirit of debate in every post.
THAT’S what I want to see. If you don’t like this post, if you don’t like other posts, at least give us two reasons why, and we’ll start there. Maybe you could be the change that you want to see, but everyone would have to be engaged in an even way. If you didn’t like it, let’s hear it. And we can all share real constructive discourse together. Thanks for reading.
December 6th, 2008 at 5:25 pm
Troy, two people emailed me this post so I’ve reread it a couple of times trying to decide if I wanted to comment on it or not. I figured I wouldn’t because that would take up too much space. But because I kind of feel bad for you, I’m going to try and make it as short as I can.
The earlier pictures were the first flag. I spent most of my time here commenting on covers like that, but the basic idea was that rather than portraying women as solid capable and distinct characters, they were angled so that sexually attractive traits are first and foremost to the detriment of any of the characterization an artist needs to put forth in an image of a comic book character. They did not say “Heroic”, “Villainous”, or even (although I could tell in the one with the girl and blue this was the attempt) “Tragic.” They said “Sexy.” This is a common problem not just on covers but inside books, where the storytelling and characterization is sacrificed to showcase cheesecake art. The fact that those cheesecake pictures are from covers to books which Mr. Gregory edits doesn’t excuse this. It just makes it worse, because that’s the sort of image he puts out as part of his business.
The pornographic metaphors and references indicate a lack of class, and also show a flippant attitude towards women. Even though some of the jokes were gender neutral, mainstream pornography–which is what most people mean when they mention porn–is notorious for being aimed at straight white men and being incredibly degrading to women. He put in parenthesis he liked those metaphors, and his defensive manner there implies he KNOWS that this attitude is offensive to people and simply doesn’t care if he makes others uncomfortable. This also betrays a lack of class.
Juxtaposed with those images? That leaves a terrible impression of him as a person and as a professional.
Later on in the post he wishes for a bunch of lesbian characters in Marvel to have an all-girl orgy. That doesn’t help that image at all.
Lack of respect for women has long been a common criticism of the mothership, and the blog’s developed a different readership because of the different tone. Perhaps to offset this you should look into a women’s or just general social issues feature on the blog. I strongly urge you to look around and ask writers who already delve into the thick mess of societal politics on their blogs if they would like to do a weekly or even just monthly feature? I’d suggest trying Valerie D’Orazio (she tends to take soft tone with her criticisms that may go over well with your readers) and if she’s too busy with her writing inquire over at Friends of Lulu, Sequential Tart, and Girl-Wonder.org. I’m sure a lot of people would jump at the chance to reach an audience this size.
December 6th, 2008 at 5:43 pm
What’s wrong with this entry? apart from SlashFic losers have to spew? Seriously, if you think that this entry is bad try setting foot in bendis’ board, they have references like this all the time (but much worse)
December 6th, 2008 at 11:31 pm
Lisa, thanks for the words. No need to feel badly for me. My first directive is to make sure that we establish a good level of conversation, and that the conversation is civil. If people take issue with a post or a blogger, they should feel free to express contrary views.
Perhaps Raven will chose to address some of your finer points, as they are really about what he had to write rather than what I had to say. I appreciate your sharing your point of view.
As to the coverage of women’s issues: yes, that’s been something in the general offing since I was first approached about taking over Blog@. There will be several regular sections forming in the near future, and that will indeed have a place. I’d be rather surprised if we didn’t see our own Sarah Jaffe, herself an educator that has also worked for a women’s magazine, take point on some of those discussions. I can’t imagine that Barb wouldn’t have a part to play there, either, particularly since one of her final presentations prior to graduation was about the treatment of female characters in comics.
Again, I appreciate what you had to say. And maybe Raven or one of the other people from Zenescope would like to offer comment, and we could see a real discussion between you and them. That could offer rewards for all.
December 7th, 2008 at 12:34 am
Is it having watched porn that indicates a lack of class or just admitting publicly that does so? If it is just watching it, I get the feeling that there are some classless people claiming to be offended. And I missed where Raven included a list of what porn he finds hot, as to assess whether any of it is particularly degrading.
Anyway, I love the First Amendment. It leaves people free to say that certain people and views shouldn’t be allowed to speak and share with the world their harsh judgment for those people.
December 7th, 2008 at 12:47 am
Adding onto what Lisa commented, the images weren’t related to the contents of the column at all and didn’t have any captioning about the book titles or the artists. So to me the effect came off like a grab at getting attention or titillating readers by chucking in random pictures of cheesecake girls.
December 7th, 2008 at 2:10 am
The images were the largest base for my comment but as stated by another porter, some of his comments are very insulting to women. I have seen zenescope’s comics in the shop and decided long ago that i would never read them.
I don’t care if the blog addresses womens issues but i do care that my favorite form of media is littered with hateful art and nobody seems to take notice. If the pictures or comments were racist, we wouldn’t have this conversation. It is a shameful thing to be racist but not sexist in our industry and in many others. You don’t have to address the issues but you don’t have to perpetuate them either. It is offensive, raven knew so, and posted anyway. I really don’t need more hate for women in my life. As a man in the comics industry and the music industry, I’ve had to explain sexism to people in many contexts. Just try to treat women with respect. More people will enjoy your product. There are some articles you should read, one by alan moore, one by myself which deals with sexism in comics. I don’t have the link handy now but will post them at a later date.
December 7th, 2008 at 4:52 am
So I wrote a long response to all of this and it listed it as spam. Will try again a bit later.
December 7th, 2008 at 5:01 am
Kevin, it’s so cute when people try to use the First Amendment to try to silence or shame criticism. And by “cute,” I mean “sad and somewhat laughably ironic” naturally.
Personally, while I wouldn’t say I was offended, I did think the article was in poor taste and also somewhat incoherent.
I also admit to an irrational bias against people who use the phrases “cocktease” and “blue balls” in a review of a product that isn’t actually sexually-themed. It strikes me as false advertising, if nothing else.
December 7th, 2008 at 5:20 am
Content aside, isn’t the quality of writing a little bit below Newsaramas standard? The “Bendis Board” reference seems very astute, NEqualsP.
December 7th, 2008 at 12:07 pm
Kevin, where did anyone say Raven couldn’t talk about porn? I feel like you’re making mountains out of molehills here.
December 7th, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Troy — Thanks, I was a little panicked for a moment there and feeling bad about walking. Feel a lot better now.
December 7th, 2008 at 3:17 pm
I’m just commenting to help even out the negativity in the comments with some positive ones. The few that I felt needed to be remarked on were:
“You suck at the internet dude. Also, try having taste and not letting your blatant disrespect of women ruin an article that had potential.”
Showing pictures from Zenescope comics (you know, the place he writes for?), does not mean he doesn’t have taste. Actually screw that, showing pictures of woman no matter how they appear is not tacky nor doe sit mean you disrespect them. Women dress like that in real life and a good majority make a lot of money doing so, it doesn’t mean people expect them to cook dinner, stay in the kitchen and have sex whenever and with who ever asks. The article didn’t lose potential, it showed his own opinions through out and just because you don’t like seeing women dressed like that, doesn’t mean it’s disrespectful to them or that the article no longer has potential.
“I don’t wish to be rude, but was there a point to this, other than a feeble excuse to show boobies, and bloviate? If you are going to be the new fellow coming in, a LITTLE more class would be appreciated.”
Did you even read it? There was a lot in the article, while there was only 4 pictures. It was an article based on opinion. Showing pictures associated with the publisher he works with isn’t a sign that he has no class. It’s everyone here complaining about those pictures who have lost class.
“couldn’t you at least preview the post to make sure that the tacky images are sized correctly?”
Try clicking on the pictures, they get bigger.
On a side note, I just found it slightly funny that a majority of the people complaining about the images shown were…surprise surprise…females(or that’s what the names posted leads you to believe).
Look, I’m a woman, so I hate when people act like sexist assholes and say I can’t do anything other than cook clean and make children?
Yeah but that’s because I hate when people act like you don’t have potential.
Do I treat guys who like girls dressed like those shown as if they have no class? No
Why?
Because it doesn’t mean they don’t. The girls look nice, liking how they appear doesn’t mean they’re not classy. I give girls props with the courage to dress like that knowing what they’ll have to deal with for doing so.
On that note I only give the props to girls who dress like that only, not the ones who sleep around because they look good enough to do so, that isn’t classy.
However, for those of you who focused more on the images than anything else, you really missed the point of the article.
He didn’t agree with something, plain and simple.
If he said something you disagreed with, try having some class yourself and stating what he said and then have some facts to back up why you disagree.
Running around saying his disrespectful and just tossing insults around really is not only the worst kind but not helpful feedback.
If you want a writer to write differently, you have to explain what it is you don’t like.
Or you simply -DON’T- have to read it.
Freedom of speech goes both ways my friends, he can say what he wishes and you can act like adults and give him negative feedback, hopefully above the insight of a close minded 12 year old. Or you simply don’t have to read it.
Other people will read his work even if you don’t. Simply because while you don’t agree with him, there’s plenty of people who enjoy his insight. If there wasn’t, his comics wouldn’t be as popular and well spoken of as they are. So the girls don’t dress like everyone walking around. People who claim this is disrespectful need to let it go. Equal rights means you can do whatever you want and complaining about photos like these doesn’t mean girls are simply going to stop dressing like that. Those who read Zenescope, no matter what they’re initial reason for picking the comic up, continue to read it because of the story lines. Other than the fairy tale characters actually, a good majority of the characters where normal everyday, no disrespectful clothes. Don’t judge the comics based on their covers, try reading the stories and you might learn something. You might not and might hate it for whatever reasons, just don’t insult an authors work simply because you think it’s disrespectful. If the comics were really that degrading to woman someone would’ve complained so much to the right people by now that something would be changed. It’s 2008 my friends, and in a few weeks it shall be 2009. Can we drop this whole complaining about people being disrespectful to woman just because of pictures shown? I know -plenty- of people, who not only draw but photograph girls either barely clothed or not clothed at all; as previously mentioned I give them props because I simply don’t have the courage to be in front of a camera with anything short of jeans and at least a tank top.; and they are far from disrespectful to woman. If anything they show woman more respect than anyone I know because they know it’s not easy to do that kind of work without being treated like a harlot, no is it easy for the artist to do that work without being seen as a sexist pig. No gender is without biased opinions on the other. I guarantee if there had been half naked men on here no one would’ve jumped around screaming that it was disrespectful to men.
Read the stories, you find out that it’s not just attacking woman. It’s attacking people who have no heart, woman aren’t the only ones coming across as helpless, dumb or even horrible. Men are portrayed that way as well in the stories.
To Raven:
The article was far from as awful as many commenting have made it seem. I really hope you continue writing a lot despite their remarks, simply because I am overly looking forward to the next issues of not only your work but the rest of the writes in Zenescope.
December 7th, 2008 at 3:23 pm
P.S, I’m aware of the typos and spelling errors made; can’t believe I missed them, it sucks.
However if any of you would like to complain about anything stated, let’s not use those as a base to start with.
December 7th, 2008 at 7:50 pm
Actually Tiff, you can ignore our posts if you don’t like them, since that is what you are suggesting we do. It is not a readers job to specify why we dislike something. We are entitled to show our disapproval for what ever we wish. I didn’t call for him to be banned or deleted and didn’t try to remove his first ammendment right in anyway, just stated that he obviously has no respect for women.
http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/4920899.html
http://www.bookstove.com/Book-Talk/Sexism-in-Comics.162505
Are the articles I was talking about.
December 7th, 2008 at 11:01 pm
I’m not sure if the images have changed since the discussion began, but to be honest I didn’t pay much attention to them. I was focusing on the text (I’m familiar with Zenescope’s output so there wasn’t really any need to actually give more than a cursory glance to the pictures).
As far as Mr. Gregory’s text, I have to admit that I was in agreeance (to borrow a non-word from Fred Durst) with him in many respects. Batman RIP was a let-down. I won’t even go into One More Day (I’ve said enough on that in the past). I’m sick of event comics and their lack of real impact.
Is Mr. Gregory a bit crude? Probably to most people. Could he have made his statements with a little more decorum? Again, probably. But if he just wants to be himself (which is what I assume is what he was doing), who am I to complain? If I don’t like it, I don’t have to read his posts anymore. That solves that problem. It really is a rather simple solution.
December 8th, 2008 at 12:13 am
Thanks guys for the feedback. I appreciate the words and that anyone even takes the time out to read anything I write. Thank you. As for the not respecting women statement, I have nothing but the utmost respect for women. A gay friend of mine read this same article and mentioned that the same statement could relate to him as easily as it could a women. And the lesbian statement came from Terry Moore writing Strangers In Paradise ( a wonderful book that I highly recommend to anyone who hasn’t had the pleasure of reading it) in which, hey, there were lesbian assassins as well as a whole world of crazy crazy goodness.
And yes, I do tend to put my foot in my mouth more often than not but the comparison to porn was only just that, a thought or idea meant to convey an image in the mind of the reader. Not at attempt to downgrade women.
My mom, my sister, my nieces and my aunts all read my blogs, and works, and the majority of my friends, as well as readership (not to mention the main, Calie Liddle, character of the Wonderland series that I write) are female as well and while something’s I might say might seem uncoth or less that civilized, I’d rather it be me coming out rather than everything else you see on the internet that goes through this strange policitical filter of not wanting to write something that everyone will not find offensive.
But thank you for having me and thank you for the thoughts.
December 8th, 2008 at 12:34 am
I can ignore your posts, it would be simple and free some time but that wouldn’t be very nice to the author to let a string of people insult him when I don’t agree with the insults. So he put a few pictures on this blog, it’s not as big a deal as it has been turned into. Sexism exists and not just in comics so it’s not fair to attack comic artists and authors about it. If you it bothers you so much, make it disappear in the real world. Which simply can’t happen because there are both girls and guys who live up to the stereotypes that have been created.
In remark to what Kitty said:”the images weren’t related to the contents of the column at all and didn’t have any captioning about the book titles or the artists.”
He clearly says in the second paragraph towards the end of it, that they are in fact “Zenescope goodness”.
December 8th, 2008 at 1:53 am
It’s cool, Raven (or at least with me, can’t speak for everyone). Though I didn’t have a big problem with the porn analogies, as an English T.A. I gotta say your post came off pretty frenetic. Because of that it was hard for me to get your tone sometimes.
I’m actually looking forward to hearing your perspective on comics as an editor and publisher, especially from an independent publisher such as yourself. I love hearing from people not from DC or Marvel, as there’s often less of a corporate filter between the creator and the reader.
Oh, and I have a friend who’s huge into Grimm Fairy Tales. He uses those images as a sig and even calls himself “Grimm” online. I’ll try to tell him you got a blog now.
December 8th, 2008 at 10:44 am
Raven — Okay, I’ve got nothing against you, man, and I can tell you mean very well but there’s two really wrong things with that comment. I don’t really have the time/energy to get into the details right now but you did two very big groan-worthy things in that second-to-the-last paragraph.
The “Some of my best friends are women and they aren’t offended” thing is incredibly problematic for a few dozen reasons, but the biggest one is this: I don’t know these friends and family of yours, I just know what I read in your article. I can only judge based on my knowledge and experience. So can the rest of the commenters here and many of us were given a poor impression by your post and the accompanying imagery.
The other issue is saying that people who carefully watch what they say are just politically-motivated and not merely thoughtful people. I don’t know of a nice way to put this, so here it is: That’s pretty much dodging responsibility for thinking. Look, writing is communication. What you communicated was that women aren’t worth the time it takes to phrase and frame your piece–a piece that seems designed to try and SELL a product–in a manner that at least won’t actively offend them.
Maybe to you that’s a bogus “political filter” but all writing is political. LIFE is political because human beings are insanely social creatures. We have a billion little tiny rules that we observe in our interactions with each other. There’s a reason for that. Because our lives depend on the support of other humans, we’ve developed a system of rules based on gaining and keeping that support, as well as fettering out who can be trusted to give that support and who that support is worth giving to. What rules are followed and what rules are discarded TELL us what other people consider a priority, and what might be result if we invest our time our efforts or our money in this person. This piece on a professional blog written by a man in a professional capacity is like a neon sign flashing “This guy’s product will not appeal to you!”
Example of that political filter? My first impulse was to write “This guy will spend your money on strippers!” but I didn’t want to risk earning your emnity for the sake of a cheap laugh when I’m trying to convince you of my point of view.
But there’s a more serious, more disturbing implication in that paragraph. And I’m going to qualify it by saying I don’t have anything against you personally, and I don’t dislike your comics but I’m going to bring it up. It’s worth the risk of your emnity so that I can get you to think it over: You seem to be saying you dropped those early thoughts and wrote this because it was a truer representation of your personality than a more measured piece. Well, if people react badly to your true personality after you’ve dropped the filter, can you really defend yourself by blaming the filter that keeps people from seeing that?
December 8th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I think my complaints with the article can be best distilled down to “DAMN, that was sophomoric.”
December 9th, 2008 at 1:43 am
I mention the Freedom of Speech thing because of the people threatening to boycott the whole of Newsarama because they’re allowing someone of Raven’s ilk to blog like this. I mention the Freedom of Speech thing for people that have basically said anyone who likes porn is classless and suggests that there should basically be nothing titillating because they think it is always exploitative and disrespectful to all the women in the world.
People are bringing their own emotional baggage to this and holding Raven responsible for it. Not every lustful person is misogynist or sexist. And, for God’s sake, if you don’t like his style of blogging, skip over it to the next entry…you do realize there are probably at least a hundred other entries a week, right?
December 9th, 2008 at 2:20 am
I know this isn’t a constitutional thing. I’m just talking about the spirit of the whole thing when you think someone shouldn’t be allowed to talk about subjects or talk in a manner that you don’t like. I should have made the comment with “freedom of speech”, instead of “Freedom of Speech”.
December 9th, 2008 at 8:51 am
That’s somewhat strawman-ish, wouldn’t you say, Kevin? I mean the majority of the negative reactions are either incredulous: “What is that?”, indignant: “Well, I’m not reading it anymore!” or explanatory: “I didn’t like it because…”
The only one that really could be considered a “boycott” is possibly the reaction from those indignant enough to stop reading…which goes against the “well you don’t have to read this post if you don’t like it” response of many defenders HOW exactly?
If you’re talking about the “spirit” of the matter, then what about the spirit of thinking someone isn’t allowed to express their own honest opinion about something that they’d read?
Mr. Gregory seems like a nice guy, but just as he ought to be able to write what he wants, I should be able to point out that I didn’t care for it and why.
December 9th, 2008 at 6:27 pm
It should also be noted that whether or not a person is offended by something, like mr gregory’s female friends for instance, doesn’t determine if the potentially offensive thing can contribute to a societal view on what the art is portraying. If a woman likes, say, the rapper Mars and his album some girls deserve to die, because they laugh at extreme violence and think feminism is a big joke and that women shouldn’t take their gender so seriously, doesn’t mean that the men who hear it, the young men and women who are around those who play it, won’t have their psychological perspective altered by the experience of the artform. And while i fully appreciate the first amendment, while i can enjoy art that would offend many, i can’t not point out the very real and serious problems that come from a mindset that women should be used as nothing more than to bring a primal instinct to the forefront of ones persona in order to gain their attention. You don’t have to try and turn people on because your story or blog should be good enough to hold our attention with out badly drawn women who escaped some poor, weak, hapless persons fantasies. Also, having female characters does not mean you are not a sexist. Read the two articles i linked. One was written by alan moore for crying out loud.
December 9th, 2008 at 9:12 pm
Whoa…first off I just want to say that EVERYONE makes a good point here. It saddens me to think that with just this one post that so many of you have such a negative view of Raven. I’ll just be straight and say it, I am a friend of Raven, I am a comic book writer and yes I am a female. Some of you mention Raven’s lack of respect for female and or have expressed your animosity towards the portrayal of women in Zenescope’s comic, now I totally understand where you all are coming from, trust me I do. Frankly we all have to realize ever since comics started way back in the days women have been featured in various comic as this cheesecake factor. Now I’m not condoning that women have to be featured in comics this way but I think it will take open discussions like this to help pave the way for changes in the industry. As an Asian American I would love to see an Asian win the Oscar one day, but is that going to happen anytime soon….probably not, but its not impossible. Same with comics, are we gonna see a comic that features the true woman and not this overly sexed person, yeah maybe (and you know I’m sure there are some out there as we speak). The portrayal of women in comics has and probably always will be a hot topic. I understand that sex sells I really do, and I also understand that in some respect these images are hurtful. Why not try to shape it?
Also calling Raven a Sexist is a bit much. If you want to define him by this post then I feel bad for those who do. Get to know to him, talk to him, read some more of his materials (or not whatever you decide) but to DEFINE someone by just ONE post is a bit much (some of you are probably thinking, “oh you’re his friend so of course you’re going to say..”) Okay well thats partly true, no but seriously when I read his post even I was like WTF? (sorry Raven you know I heart you as a friend hehe). But thats Raven, thats him just letting go. Yeah some of the things he says might come off bad, but don’t let it fool you. This guy has so much to offer. Remember folks, the title of this article is, “RANTING RAVEN” hence the ranting folks. Lets not be fooled, cause this is truly one talented writer I’ve worked with who is passionate about a lot of things. Yeah so some of the things he says might SEEM sexist, so tell him…point that shit out to him. Say hey, “whats up with that?” I’m sure he’ll give you his reasons (probably didn’t even know he wrote it like that). I know I’ve had a few slip ups myself as a writer.
But seriously you all make a good point I’m not here to knock anyones opinion. Just be sure when you label someone as something that it is true. I’d hate to think Raven had to wear the big S (and no not the Scarlet letter S or Superman – which I’m sure we all wish we could wear – but you know the OTHER S…okay you get my point) on his chest when really it doesn’t define him AT ALL.
December 10th, 2008 at 8:01 pm
We have a “you suck”, we have a “Goodbye, Blog@Newsarama”, and we even have former contributors blogging about it in their LiveJournal. My question here: if you have a problem with the post, why not clearly define it?
Why are you including my post — I’m assuming that’s what you’re referring to — in with the vague comments? I clearly defined what I found laughable about the post (and it’s too laughable for me to be actually offended by it) in my journal post. I’m not going to get involved in a conversation with Raven about it because I don’t think the situation warrants it. I was just amused about something that I thought is pretty tacky and shameless about it and sharing it with people who read my blog.
December 14th, 2008 at 4:56 am
WOW! I don’t think I have enough Valium for everyone…So, I am simply going to ask everyone to take a deep breath with me. 1…2…3…Breathe. Okay. Now…to the problem at hand. Raven, the only issue I had with your article is that the wording was strange sometimes. So, I had to reread quite a bit to see where you were going. I am sure that you were “tired” when you wrote the first part of the article so I will give you some wiggle room. LOL. As for everyone else, don’t you have better things in your life to do than tear down someone who is following their dream (comics) and just writing an article for entertainment value. It’s not an Opinion Piece or Memoir published in TIMES. It’s NEWSARAMA. You didn’t even pay for this article. LMAO. If y’all put this kind of energy into something that really matters like Gay Marriage Rights or saving Starving Children or attempting to assist those in the housing crisis, I think this world wouldn’t be the crap pile that it is. So…again…Deep Breath…1…2…3…Breathe. Now go outside and get some sunlight…Interact with living, breathing people (instead of just a cursor on a screen)…and say hello to the real world…just for a day. I know it’s difficult, but it’s just one day. You’ll survive…TRUST! LMAO. Hugs y’all…and go outside!
February 20th, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Raven Gregory couldn’t write his way out of a paper bag… which is why he writes for Zenescope.
Hint: if you can’t land a gig with a major after nearly a decade, you might want to check your ego at the door and relearn your craft. Because you certainly don’t have “The Gift.”
It took me all of one day to land an editor at DC based off some sample scripts and a referral. Perhaps it’s crap like this that’s holding you up?
Professionals should act thusly, sir. And this was anything but.
If vulgarity and the bottle are a problem for you, why not try gargling with Zenescope?
Aside from the crappy artwork, it’s known to leave a bad taste in your mouth…
February 21st, 2009 at 12:58 am
For more Raven Gregory perversions, be sure to check out his Bendis “Jinx World” posts.
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