Few topics stir up fans of superhero comics more than character deaths and reboots. So, in a curious coincidence, what subjects do you think the top editors at Marvel and DC tackled over the weekend?
In his weekly “MyCup O’ Joe” column, Marvel Editor-in-Chief Joe Quesada addressed his often-quoted — but, perhaps, out-of-context – “Dead is dead” statement from early in his tenure:
Eight years ago, my feeling on comic deaths was pretty specific — they were just being handled too willy-nilly, and thus were losing their impact. What I set out to do was challenge my editors and our creative teams to up the ante when it came to character deaths, because I felt that there was no longer any impact.
The rule of thumb I wanted to use was simple, discounting cliché deaths like the supervillain getting “washed away in the river” to his supposed death. This rule only pertained to significant deaths and significant characters. The rule was you had to have a plan. Way too often, I would see creators kill off a major character without a plan as to how to replace them or how to resurrect them in a way that would be as meaningful as the death. Too many characters were being killed for the sheer shock value of it, and without any story-driven motivations.
Phrases like “significant characters” and “significant deaths” leave me wondering about those B- or C-list characters who tend to serve as cannon fodder in “event” comics — to demonstrate how ruthless a villain is, or how high the stakes are. Or who get killed again and again. And again.
Meanwhile, at Fan Expo, DC Comics Executive Editor Dan DiDio lamented his company’s eagerness to revamp characters:
What happens is that if a character doesn’t work, we go, “We got a brand new direction to put him in! We’re moving him into something new! We’re going to try something brand new and different! We’re going to throw everything out and start over again!” We make that mistake, but what that does is, it alienates fans.
Our biggest mistake is that we don’t continue and build on … what we should be doing is let it sit for a while and then come back with a good strong story with what’s going on. That’s what Geoff [Johns] does. That’s Geoff’s secret weapon. He doesn’t throw it all out and start all over. He builds on what’s existed and makes it better … We get too worried about the minutia … all we should be doing is telling great stories with out characters.
Johns’ superhero formula obviously strikes a chord with DC readers, even if I find his approach overly nostalgic and weighed down by a preoccupation with legacies and parent-child/mentor-protégé relationships.
Likewise, I can’t argue (much) with playing the hand you’re dealt — the post-Infinite Crisis landscape is littered with revamps and relaunches that didn’t work. But at least a couple of the characters are certainly worth keeping around, even if their titles didn’t set the sales charts on fire: Jamie Reyes as Blue Beetle and Ryan Choi as The Atom. (DC and Warner Bros. apparently agree about Reyes, as he has a noticeable presence in the promotional materials for the upcoming Batman: The Brave and the Bold animated series.)
August 26th, 2008 at 11:21 am
what’s wrong with legacies and child/mentor/parent relationships. for mainstream super-heroes legacies are the best way to keep the icon around while infusing new ideas into it everytime a new generation is introduced.
when will superhero fans get over this?
it’s okay to let nightwing be batman guys.
or else the big 2 will keep having to find new ways to tell the same damn stories.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:06 pm
“That’s what Geoff [Johns] does. That’s Geoff’s secret weapon. He doesn’t throw it all out and start all over. He builds on what’s existed and makes it better … ”
And when he’s done all that, maybe he finds time to tell an actual fucking story. But usually it’s on to the next crossover.
August 26th, 2008 at 12:46 pm
‘Cause they can’t be both, right? Its either a crossover or a story.
Man sometimes I wonder how fans can sound so ridiculous and not notice it themselves.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:32 pm
Geoff Johns is a continuity porn/fanfiction writer. That’s why his books are so popular.
August 26th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Yeah, Quesada was misquoted. His actual quote was:
“Dead is dead, except for Brubaker bringing Bucky back. After that, dead is no longer dead.”
August 26th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
“Phrases like “significant characters” and “significant deaths” leave me wondering about those B- or C-list characters who tend to serve as cannon fodder in “event” comics”
I don’t think that’s what he meant. He said that directly after saying that he wasn’t talking about villains “dying” mysteriously. I think he was just saying that he didn’t mean there should be no death ever, including minor characters and villains.
One of the things I noticed about Civil War was that it didn’t have tons of cannon fodder deaths. Bill Foster wasn’t an A-List character, maybe not even C-List, but it was noteworthy when he died. Meanwhile, Infinite Crisis killed more people in a single issue than Civil War killed in its entire run. I’d say Quesada got what he wanted, characters aren’t being killed willy nilly.
August 26th, 2008 at 6:53 pm
So Dan DiDio sez: “… all we should be doing is telling great stories with out characters.”
Umm… You can start any time now, Dan!
Sure, once in a while your writers get lucky, and then there’s consistently good stuff like Dini’s Detective run, or Johns’ run on GL (even if some of you have issues with him, GL’s been a fine book) or All-Star Superman (which, of course, is so good that, naturally, it’ll be ending should issue #12 ever come out in out lifetimes), but those have, IMO, sadly, been the exceptions and not the rules.
August 26th, 2008 at 9:07 pm
“Sure, once in a while your writers get lucky, and then there’s consistently good stuff like Dini’s Detective run, or Johns’ run on GL (even if some of you have issues with him, GL’s been a fine book) or All-Star Superman (which, of course, is so good that, naturally, it’ll be ending should issue #12 ever come out in out lifetimes), but those have, IMO, sadly, been the exceptions and not the rules.”
I disagree.
From what I’ve noticed, at least, DC has severely upped the ante this past year, putting out works that are of incredible quality. They have some less stellar books, yes, but others are absolutely incredible. I’ve been reading the Superman books since the middle of the Jurgens run, and I think that the franchise is the best now than it’s ever been, with Action Comics being my current favorite book that I can’t wait for every month. Gail Simone has been writing an incredible Wonder Woman story, planing seeds here and there for what could turn into an epic story–and Wonder Woman, as a mythic character, SHOULD have en epic story. As you mentioned, Green Lantern is great right now, and I think that the entire Bat-franchise is doing well–Morrison’s Batman run has been picking up speed, Dini’s Detective is solid as always, Tomasi’s Nightwing run seems to be much loved by those that read it, and Fabian Nicieza seems a good fit for Robin, given his past workload. Trinity is a far, FAR better weekly than Countdown, and although it had a slow start, it’s solidly moving forward–this is the sort of book both Busiek and Bagley were made for. Blue Beetle recently finished an incredible (and accessible!) run by John Rogers, while Booster Gold was a very steady fan-favorite title during it’s first year (we’ll have to see how it does in future issues). And most of the Final Crisis content looks excellent–top-name writers and artists telling great stories, I have yet to find an issue that I’m disappointed in, and I was skeptical at first.
While DC has had a rough couple of years, they’ve really turned things around with their line. Last year I was excited about Marvel, but this year I’m jumping out of my seat for DC.
August 28th, 2008 at 9:31 am
Let’s talk about the Bill Foster death.
A black character, killed for no reason other than that someone had to die to move the story along (so why not kill a white character?), then wrapped in a white sheet, wrapped in chains, and buried without a casket in a hole in the ground right where he died, just as one might do with an animal. Good way to get rid of a black character, Marvel.
August 28th, 2008 at 5:45 pm
And don’t forget that they fried the chicken guy in CW: Frontline.