Adalisa Zárate comments on the Memin Pinguin controversy I blogged about yesterday, where Wal-Mart stopped selling a Spanish-language comic due to customer complaints about it offensively portraying Black people.
Zárate, a Mexican comic artist, writer and editor, says that most of the problems Americans have with Memin are due to “cultural differences”:
First point in fact: There’s not that much racism in México against PoC. We have our own problems against the indigenous habitants, but not against PoC, and that makes us have troubles to relate to the situation north our border. What we have is a huge problem of class discrimination. Upper class looks down on Middle Class, who looks down on the poor. You could have green skin and purple hair but as long as you don’t stray away from your own economical class, no one would bat an eye at you. If pressed, I’d say we have a huge discrimination trouble against Spainards in a very intricate level, mostly because a little over 600 years after our Independence from them, we still haven’t forgiven them for Hernan Cortes.
Second point: No one in this huge complains against Memin has ever tried to actually read the whole story. I know it’s daunting, as last I checked it ran around the 200 issues, but they could ask about it to people who had read it. Because when you get Memin in context, the story is quite different from what you might guess at the covers, or at a single issue.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:08 pm
The problem I have with Zárate’s response it’s like you want a pass because you are south of the border. An intelligent artist political or not SHOULD know that such a physical characterization of a Black male will not fly for long in this country and shouldn’t in Mexico as well. The question I ask is why make the boy stereotypical depiction of black male originally in the sixties no less during a time of great social change and unrest? They’re not so far south that they are totally oblivious to what’s going on in the world. Especially now in this day in age. And why in today’s culture would this character be so popular? what IS the cultural significance that black people and other Americans who find it offensive or not getting? Please help me understand here. I mean even saying that he is not black but Cuban is not any better since historically Cubans, have a large black population due to slavery and does have issues of race there despite what some would think.
It seems like Zárate wants to say that since Aunt Jemima is good syrup or pancake mix its cool to keep the fat black woman in a headscarf on the box. It does float. Please let me hear from Mexicans as to why we should not be offended.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
This identical type of character was used as the sidekick to Will Eisner’s The Spirit, which why I think Frank Miller chose not to use it the upcoming movie this winter.
July 12th, 2008 at 11:51 pm
Hello Frown. I’m answering you here because, well, I just wrote another post touching exactly what you say here and since I think we’re talking about the same thing I thought maybe it would be best to answer to you directly. I honestly hope you read this.
First, Memin wasn’t drawn on the 60’s. He was drawn in the 40’s. And while it was a time of huge political unrest for the United States, it wasn’t for Mexico. In fact, our time of political unrest came in the 70’s and it was for a completely different reason than yours. What Mr. Valencia, the artist, did, was, as you mention too, drawn influenced by Will Eisner as well as other artist of the time both in the States and other countries, but he can’t update the looks as he doesn’t own the copyright, and the company that does isn’t interested on updating Memin as that would cost money to them.
Second… maybe I wasn’t very clear in my edit, or you read the post before the edit… but I do get why the image of Memin is offensive to Americans. My intent was not to say “Oh, dear me, don’t get offended” but to say “Look, HERE is why Mexicans who live south the border say that Memin is not racist. Because they’re talking of the story, not about the art.” As well as to explain why nothing is being done to change it. And, as a last attempt, to try and get past the whole angry comments to try and explain to other Spanish speaking artists why exactly is this happening because most of what they are hearing is not “Memin looks offensive and he draws from very old offensive stereotypes” but “Memin Penguin as a whole is racist” and, as a collateral “USA wants the Goverment to step up and do something that the Goverment has nothing to do with”, and that makes it hard to get past it. Especially as, as I said in my blog, the whole point of Memin’s story (not the art, but the story) is ‘everyone is equal, we all deserve the same rights, the same freedom, the same dignity: the poor, the rich, the black people, the white people, the fat people. We’re all people.’ That’s why he is so beloved.
I apologize for my wordiness. Although I’m fluent in English, at times it takes me a while to express my point completely and as clearly as I can. I hope I managed.
July 13th, 2008 at 4:58 pm
“What Mr. Valencia, the artist, did, was, as you mention too, drawn influenced by Will Eisner as well as other artist of the time both in the States and other countries…”
The question here that has not been answered for me is why would Mr. Valencia choose this style of art to represent a black person? What is the cultural significances of this type of representation of black people? Surely as an enlightened artist he was aware that this was a derogatory way to depict black people no matter where you are. If a black artist in 40’s, 50’s or 60’s or now was to portray Mexicans in a way as “wet-backs” or categorize all Mexicans in the US as “fence jumpers” this would rightly be condemned. But when blacks cry foul you get this ridiculous response from non-blacks to just accept these types of affronts as a part of life when they no full well if it was the opposite they would not accept this.
I have researched Ebony White’s character and Will Eisner also wanted to hide behind the fact that he was just doing what everyone else was doing at the time. Despite knowing that this type of depiction was derogatory he did it anyway. People (some black) praise him for having a black character that has been a part of the story line since its start. However, for me what would have been better was to simply show this character (Ebony White)as a normal human being without the Sambo, Minstrel black face look. That would have made more sense and been cutting edge in a time when the laws and philosophy of the USA was that black people had no rights that a white person had to abide by, and printed images by in large were same as the original look of Ebony White. We also know that because blacks were not allowed to be educated or were given limited access to education that there developed a form of broken English that was nearly a new language in itself. I get this and would not have a problem with it, if it is done right, say as Paul Lawrence Dunbar did so well in his writings of the time.
Most Americans do not speak Spanish which I admit is part of the issue of maybe a misunderstanding here. Thus, there is value in learning enough Spanish to understand the overall story of this comic. Yet, tt is very difficult to SEE Memin as anything but a bigoted representation of black people. I just find it hard to understand why you talk about the freedom of all peoples worldwide in the same voice you denigrate one at the same time.
July 13th, 2008 at 5:51 pm
he only reason that I’m glad all this is happening, is that I honestly believe we can understand each other and that will only help things. I know it’s going to be hard to explain, since it has a lot to do with the cultural situation and the general differences, but if I don’t make myself clear, and you want to take this off the Newsarama forum, my blog has my mail published so you can mail me with any question you have. I have decided to dedicate myself to try and see the issue from both sides of the fence, and hopefully, bring an understanding to all this mess.
I can’t speak for Mr. Sixto, but one of the possible reasons why he honestly didn’t saw Memin’s final design as offensive (The very first Memin wasn’t drawn by him, but it was never reprinted and it’s now mostly forgotten) was because we don’t have, as a country, the same history with black people was you do, and second… it’s going to sound odd, but we’re big on caricature humor. Memin isn’t the most beloved character in Mexico, no matter how much the media says he is. The most beloved character is Cantinflas, who made a whole career of portraying a poor mexican, who was a chain smoker, very lazy, usually clumsy and got himself into complicated messes because he was lazy. In short, a stereotype mexican. And he’s not the only one like that. We put ourselves down with humor, and we always find a joke in it, because they (the ones that make the joke) are not laughing *at* us, but *with* us. And it’s a very difficult thing to explain because, to anyone who wasn’t familiar with our culture, it would sound as if Mexicans have a huge self-hate.
(As an aside… I wouldn’t bring up the way USA entertainment portrays mexicans. Just as we have troubles understanding what the whole problem with Memin is, you probably don’t realize how offensive most portrayals of mexicans in USA entertaiment today are. I’m not going to list them here, as I fear it would devolve into a whole “But see? You did all this to us!” argument, but if you’re interested, I’ll gladly compile a list about those. Trust me, there are many. We just don’t complain because… well, we “know” that you guys are never going to listen. But that’s another subject for another day)
What you are saying here is what I have been struggling to explain in my language over the screams against imperialism and cultural appropriation. It’s not the story you guys have a problem with, since you don’t know it. It’s the image. And even if we (the mexicans in general) don’t have the power to change the image (long, long story), we have to accept that the complains are valid. And hopefully, once the majority of the readers and artists *here* understand that, we might be able to convince the publisher of the wasted opportunity he has. Because, I firmly believe that if Memin didn’t look the way he does now, but away from the Sambo, Ministrel look, and the story *was* translated into english, then we (You guys, and we mexicans) would have a wonderful tool to teach kids the importance of the fight for equality. Instead, we have a huge divide between two cultures that can learn a lot from each other, and that’s just sad.
July 13th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
“…it’s going to sound odd, but we’re big on caricature humor. We put ourselves down with humor, and we always find a joke in it, because they (the ones that make the joke) are not laughing *at* us, but *with* us. And it’s a very difficult thing to explain because, to anyone who wasn’t familiar with our culture, it would sound as if Mexicans have a huge self-hate.”
Yet Memin is NOT Mexican he is Black, so your argument falls apart woefully here. It is a different thing for an artist/social commentary/writer to make valid social criticism of his/her culture but this depiction is not that. (For instance The Boondocks by Aaron McGruder makes very powerful social and satirical comments about the Black community and the US at large). You have to understand that images like this were used to “laugh at” Black people not with them. To show them to bestial (monkeys)and less human than our white counterparts. To dehumanize us so that it was easier to justify the mistreatment, and legal slavery of Blacks in this country and worldwide. So you are right I do think that if Memin did not look like this, and thus appear to be laughing at the physical features of a whole ethnic group we would NOT be having this conversation. But unfortunately these images ARE laughing at people and it is not funny despite the social and political commentary with in its pages.
July 14th, 2008 at 1:21 am
Frown, one of the things I’m trying to make clear, is that for Mexicans, Memin isn’t Black. He is a Mexican kid, and that’s about it. Due to the differences between the story of the USA and Mexico’s story, we do not see Mexico as a whole of different races, but as Mexicans. The only ones who get a special distinction, and that’s unfortunately due to social differences, are those who still recognize themselves as part of the old tribes in Mexico. But in general, if you were born in Mexico, your parents are Mexicans, and you speak spanish? You’re mexican.
Also, Mexico abolished slavery in 1810. It has never been justified here, so those images were never used for the same purposes. That’s another reason why for some Mexicans is so hard to see the issue. (Actually, the writer of Memin also wrote a story denouncing slavery. It was not the best possible way to tread the subject, as it was a very soap operaish story, but for 1950 it was progressive. All the characters were drawn in almost photorealistic style, and there was no caricaturization of anyone, villian or hero. Memin was drawn the way he is drawn because it was a comic book meant to be less dramatic than the usual fare written by Mrs. Duche)
Now, understanding that and the we all are Mexicans deal, lets put the issue of the image aside. We (Or at least, you and I) agree that it’s an offensive image, and that it would be for the best if it was changed (I’d say that it’s necessary that it was changed, but there are certain factors that prevent that from happening). What I’m asking you to understand is why so many Mexicans are puzzled at this. We don’t see Memin as less than human, because of his story, because of his background. So he has never been ‘the other’ to us. He’s always been one of us. Memin’s looks are not why we laugh with his stories. And that’s the reason why most get so defensive over this issue.
I think you and I are mostly on the same page now. I understand perfectly your point, and it’s what I’ve been explaining in spanish-language forums where thanks to the choppyway this news have been reported, many think that people are attacking the story of Memin, and not the art. In the instant that it’s clear that the problem is with the art, most of those who were saying that it’s not any of USA’s business are changing their tunes and agreeing that no matter how much we love our Memin, it’s high time he gets a makeover and leaves behind the old stereotype.
July 14th, 2008 at 9:15 pm
Adalisa,
You’re so full of it and you know it. I know that Mexicans are extremely prejudiced. The comments made by President Fox (…not even ‘lowly’ blacks want to take) reek with racism. And then, then only ones with exaggerated features and the black characters in those ‘comic books’. KMA.
July 15th, 2008 at 3:13 pm
BBastard,
I don’t pretend to say that Mexicans aren’t prejudiced, what I’m saying is that Mexicans have a different prejudice than racism, and in a very different scale than the USA. EX-president Fox said ‘not even blacks’ (you’re adding the lowly), and even here we were appalled at what he said (Not that it surprised us that he was so stupid. Fox isn’t precisely loved here -pretty much like Bush there- and he was never an example of your average Mexican. In fact, I agree. Fox IS pretty racist, and mysoginist, and classist, and a lot of other things which were the reason I never voted for him or his successor). And again, you’re not seeing the whole comic. Every time another black person appeared, he or she was drawn without exaggerated features. Memin and his mom were because they were the main characters, it’s a thing here to exaggerate the main characters in any comedy. There are Mexicans who are racists, I won’t deny that either. But it’s not part of our culture, and I think it’s quite unfair to say that ALL Mexicans are racists, or that Mexico is a racist country, just like it would be saying that ALL Americans are racists.
And if I thought that Mexico is full of prejudice and this wasn’t a cultural misunderstanding, I wouldn’t be calling for a motion to re-design Memin among mexican artist, would I?
July 15th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Wait, you said ealier that infact Valencia was influenced by Eisner who cowardly went along with the tradition of the day by whites to draw Black people in negative caricature. So why would a Mexican draw a Mexican as a black person if the character was not in fact black? This why I do not buy your statement that Memin is not a black person even though there are people of African descent in Mexico born and raised. And from what I have seen I do not see others drawn in such caricature but the drk skinned “Mexicans”. Additionally,by and large the art I have seen done by Mexican artists rarely represent Mexicans as darkly colored and with West African features.
I think the content of Memin Pinguin applaudable and very forward thinking in comparison with the United States then and now. I hope that you can work with others in and from Mexico to have it translated to English in a way that maintains the content and deep subject manner it contains. If this has already been done please let me know so I can purchase Enlgish versions.
July 15th, 2008 at 4:01 pm
Frown, what I meant is that we, in general, don’t see Memin as a black person, but as a Mexican with dark skin. Unfortunately, on the web you can only find some panels and covers, but whenever other Mexican-cubans or dark skinned mexicans appear in Memin, they are drawn with normal features. Memin is more exagerated, because as I said to BBastard, we (Mexicans) tend to like our main characters in comedy looking more cartoony. You can google “Brozo, el payaso tenebroso”, who was our most successful newscast anchor for like 10 years, and he looks like a drunken, homeless clown (In fact, his whole persona WAS a drunken, homeless and mysoginist clown. It was the joke, and people loved him. His image was a bit ‘cleaned up’ for the last years, and he lost popularity over that, but at one point when he jokingly said he was going to run for president, the electoral committee asked him to recant because they knew that people would vote for him, even if it had been a joke!) La India Maria is another example. I never liked her, but she was a very popular comedy actress whose whole act was to be the most stereotypical mexican native you could find.
Yes, there are people of African decent in Mexico, but we still consider them Mexicans, not African-Mexican.
You won’t probably find many mexicans drawing dark skinned Mexicans because the range of tones of our skin goes from the very white to the very dark so it’s hard to find a medium point to say “This is the average mexican skin color”. But you have given me an idea. I’ll start hunting through my comics, old and new, and try to do a showcase in my blog on all the different ways that Mexicans draw Mexicans and how we code forgeiners in comics. Maybe that will also help to explain further this whole cultural misshap.
We’ve got a good response about the redesign Memin idea. Although the owners of the character haven’t said anything, so I don’t think we’ll be able to say it will be official, many artists have signed up and some, recognizing that they didn’t understand the problem originally, have asked for material to research the story of offensive stereotypes in art so they can avoid them, so I consider that a small win.