Sometimes, I’m just completely out of step with fandom en masse. For example, take Brand New Day. Me, I kind of like it. It’s not the Stern/Romita Jr./DeFalco/Frenz joy of my youth, but it’s pretty enjoyably solid Spider-action on a weekly basis, you know? But then I check Millarworld, and read the following in response to Mark Millar asking the fans how they’re digging it:
“Well, to be honest, I read it for the first two months and then got over it. It’s great seeing all these crazily great creative teams and new stories. But I like some consistency to my titles; I like the sense of an overall plan, and I do miss the old structure.”
“I’m certainly not enjoying them as much as I was before Brand New Day. I’m still pining for JMS, and I’m finding the different creative teams jarring as well. The happy-go-lucky vibe seemd a bit of a throwback to me too.”
“I was interested at all the fantastic stories that had been impossible to tell when Spidey was married and bought the first three or four issues but was left really underwhelmed. For all the hoop-la I didn’t think that it really hit the mark. It felt like a sequel to Jeph Loebs ‘Blue’ crossed with Ultimate Spidey ‘Ten-Years-On’. It’s not terrible but I can’t (and don’t) see anybody getting really excited about these stories.”
“When it went from being part of the Marvel Universe to very high-grade fan-fic I lost what little interest I had in the character. And I still think they way they turned it from part of the Marvel Universe to high-grade fan-fic is one of the most insultingly stupid plot devices in comic book history–and that’s saying something.”
“BND didn’t really have a chance, even with the talent that’s been put on it. It just doesn’t FEEL right to me. It’s like a ‘pretend’ version of Spider-Man, the same way Ultimate Spider-Man isn’t the ‘real thing’. It seems reasonably well written and drawn for the most part, but you’d be surprised at the number of folks who have expressed something similar to me. It’s going to take a while for people to accept it, if they ever do.”
“I hadn’t read Spider-Man before (except for the Ulitmate version) and got caught up in the hype of the BND relaunch, however I’ve now dropped the book. Not because it’s bad, but because it’s pretty average.”
“I still don’t like how it came about, the BND stories were okay but not interesting enough to keep me on board. So for me, a big fuss about not very much with an added insult-to-the-intelligence factor in OMD which did just enough to make me drop it after 5 years or so of collecting. Basically for me, the clusterf— that was OMD wasn’t counter-balanced by the quality of BND, had the new direction been awesome it would have swept the OMD mess away, but it wasn’t.”
“I dropped Spider-man after OMD and still feel as strongly today as I did then that if I’m treated with disrespect as a longterm fan then the decision on which comics to cut when I’m spending far too much already becomes that much easier. I appreciate all the arguments about the need for something to change and to a large extent the BND ISN”T OMD argument is a fair one from the glances I’ve made…but, yeah, I felt Marvel flicked the finger at me in execution and aftermath - especially Joe Q in his various interviews. I was indeed slapped in the face and so I don’t go back to have it happen again. They pulled a Bobby Ewing on me and as someone who values writing, that’s the point where you go ‘No, I don’t think so. A perfect jumping-off point…’”
Jeez. Thankfully, there are also fans who are enjoying it posting in the thread (” The best Spidey in 20 plus years hands down,” “Spider-Man is the best that it has ever been for at least the last 15 years since I started collecting,” and “This has been the Spider-Man that I’ve been waiting for” being just some of the raves people are posting), but I’m kind of surprised that some people still seem to be hating the relaunch as much as they are. Can’t we all just forgive, forget and move on to old school Peter Parker fun?
May 7th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Well, I haven’t read BND. Not because I was appalled by the idea of it, though it did leave a bad taste in my mouth. I haven’t read it because nothing that’s been said about the stories in particular had me interested enough to pick it up. I was already growing bored with Spidey before OMD/BND happened and was going to drop it anyway. This has happened before, back before JMS came on. I was getting bored with the book when I heard about JMS reexamining Spidey’s origin and the idea that it wasn’t the radiation that caused it. Hearing that, I said “Gee, I’ve got to see how that turns out” and I picked up the book. Nothing people have said about BND has made me react that same way. So, I use my money on other things.
May 7th, 2008 at 12:20 pm
I don’t read Spider-Man, but I like the one commenter that said it doesn’t feel like the “real” spider-man. Isn’t Spidey by definition pretend?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:09 pm
This is exactly why fanboys are destroying the medium of comic books and super heroes as a genre. Their fascistic demands of adherence to a rigid continuity and attachment to whatever elements they deem important(no matter how obviously NOT INTEGRAL they are, like Spider-Man’s marriage) lead them to ignore good comics in favor of utter crap like Spider-Girl. Tom DeFalco gives mediocre writers a bad name. The people who are damning Brand New Day will often praise Spider-Girl. Talk about disconnect. That book speaks only to fanboys and no one else. It’s poorly written treacle.
People wonder why comic sales continue to decline?
Take a normal human being into a comic book shop and have them buy a current issue of Amazing Spider-Man, chances are SOMEONE, possibly even a clerk or the owner(!?!) will give them a dirty look, make a snide comment or in general be an asshat. Because of a comic book.
Obsessive fans destroy what they claim to love.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:15 pm
I don’t understand this statement. Do you expect people to start buying something they don’t like just because you and a bunch of others like it?
Are they supposed to suddenly like something that they don’t like because 3 months have passed?
May 7th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
> Can’t we all just forgive, forget and move on to old school Peter Parker fun?
No. Why should we waste our money on a scenario we don’t want to read? I haven’t bought a Legion of Super-Heroes book since 2004, and I’m not going to any time soon, because DC pulled a similar-but-lower-profile clusterfuck with that. I don’t CARE how “good” the book is, I’ll go and find something else to read, which I *will* enjoy, rather than give positive feedback to something so negative.
In other words, “I get burned, I don’t put my hand in the fire again.”
May 7th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
PS: The “Old-skool” you mention is based on the 70s and earlier. I was born in the mid-80s and started reading comics in the early-90s. I don’t have nostalgia for stuff from before I was born.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:22 pm
I thought I included it but I guess not. This was the statement I was referring to in my above post #4
…but I’m kind of surprised that some people still seem to be hating the relaunch as much as they are. Can’t we all just forgive, forget and move on to old school Peter Parker fun?…
May 7th, 2008 at 1:38 pm
“Can’t we all just forgive, forget and move on to old school Peter Parker fun?… ”
Probably not.
May 7th, 2008 at 1:42 pm
Somewhere, somewhen, a maskless Peter Parker is crouching on a rooftop, a single tear rolling down his cheek…
May 7th, 2008 at 1:43 pm
Great, another El Coyote whinefest.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:27 pm
I just don’t get how any story they’ve told really couldn’t be told with Peter married to MJ. I mean…is the new red-head super-heroine all that interesting?
May 7th, 2008 at 2:28 pm
I think the point is that a lot of people were willing to forgive, forget, and move onto old-school Peter Parker fun, but then decided after however many issues that the old-school fun has been pretty meh overall. That’s pretty much what those quotes say, and that’s how I’m feelin it. I still read it, but because I don’t want to miss anything that might by chance be interesting, not because I’m getting really into it.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Graeme, aside from the fact that 1) the writing on BND is formulaic, unimaginative, suspension-of-disbelief-breaking crap even by the standards of superhero comics, and 2) it took an incredibly onerous editorial device to get us to a status quo that even a majority of its defenders rate as mediocre at best, you’ve also got 3) the fact that, for me and a lot of other old-school Spider-man fans, resurrecting a lot of those “old school” aspects of the character necessarily forces them to be judged by modern storytelling standards, which means that, for more than a few of us, BND is actually making us hate the original Spider-Man in retrospect.
Add to that the fact that the mainstream media coverage of OMD/BND has been uniformly negative, and Marvel is going to have to undo this one, because it’s driving away a majority of existing readers, and it’s not bringing in any appreciable numbers of new readers. For all that people talk about sales figures (which are still declining), the fact of the matter is that, even if BND maintains a sales parity with the pre-OMD status quo issues, it’s already WAY below the NUMBERS OF READERS that those earlier issues had.
Relying on FEWER consumers to increase or maintain sales = an inarguably stupid move, in any medium.
May 7th, 2008 at 2:56 pm
I prefer the term “Truthfest”, Marcus.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:05 pm
“BND is actually making us hate the original Spider-Man in retrospect.”
Yeah, they should bring back MJ’s skanky ways, Howard Mackie and Tom DeFalco! And the robot parents, and Venom every other month. And a Venom-Analogue every other month! And the CLONE SAGA! BRING BACK BEN!
Anyone who claims the previous 20some years of mainstream Spider-Man is in any way superior to Brand New Day is in a state of denial that borders on psychosis.
Even JMS couldn’t make a married Spider-Man readable.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:32 pm
I quit reading Spider-Man over it. Quesada doesn’t respect me as a reader then he doesn’t get my money. That simple.
May 7th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
Even JMS couldn’t make a married Spider-Man readable.
Actually, for all the problems of JMS’ run, that was the best part of it. He did a great job with both May and Mary Jane.
And of course, there are only two creative speeds - one must either love every moth-eaten cliche of Lee and Ditko unironically, or one must be a fan of clones and Venom.
Jesus Christ, if those two polar extremes really are the only possibilities for the character, then Spider-Man needs to cease publication right now.
Except, no, wait, that’s not true, because Ultimate Spider-Man and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane disprove that every single month.
It’s especially damning that, in USM, which is the title marketed to “newer and younger” readers, both May and Mary Jane know Peter’s secret, which means they’re ahead of the curve on BND.
I could actually deal with unmarried Spider-Man, but when the 20something Spider-Man who appears in Amazing Spider-Man is less mature and admirable than the teenage Spider-Man who appears in USM, you’ve got some serious problems.
Oh, and with regards to the past 20 years of Spider-Man stories?
Quesada was EiC of Marvel of EIGHT of those years, so if nearly HALF of the years that you consider crap were supervised by him, ElCoyote, then what makes you think that they’re SUDDENLY going to get better NOW?
That’s like the people who reelected Bush, even though they hated the fact that he’d gotten us into Iraq.
May 7th, 2008 at 6:26 pm
“Quesada was EiC of Marvel of EIGHT of those years, so if nearly HALF of the years that you consider crap were supervised by him”
Half? Maybe like…1/4th. Spider-Man hasn’t been truly great for for longer than I mentioned. I would even go so far as to say when Ditko left it lost a lot of it’s charm, Romita was not nearly as skilled as he would become, and couldn’t draw a gangly Peter Parker so suddenly Peter was buff and studly. It was jarring.
But even there were still some good stories. The 70s and 80s were nearly as abysmal as what would come later, but not nearly as entirely removed from the original concept.
You read an issue of Ditko/Lee Spider-Man and an issue after the marriage and Peter is not the same person, not more ‘mature’ or ‘grown up’ he’s just…an entirely different person. It’s not Spider-Man. At least before that it felt like Spider-Man, mediocre Spider-Man, but Spider-Man, it never made sense for Peter marry and to have him marry MJ made even less sense, they’d long ago broken off their romantic relationship and then all of the sudden there’s this 180 into a marriage that was forced and seemed to be against everything the character had been about.
Spider-Man was originally about the sacrifice an extraordinary kid made to try to make amends for a mistake. It was about guilt and redemption. It became a generic super hero title about a guy who occasionally felt guilty about causing the death of his uncle/father figure. And when Peter got married, started a new life, it was as if he was ignoring all that he had learned.
What about great responsibility? He ignored the trouble having a spouse would cause, not just for him, but he inevitably put her in danger, it was a selfish and short sighted decision. One would have expected Peter to have learned at least enough to have recognized how dumb a move it was. He’d basically given any of his numerous enemies with knowledge of his identity a brand new shiny target to go after.
I’m all about progression, but I don’t see Peter marrying MJ as progression, it was a sad detour, an attempt at something that should never have been in his life.
Why doesn’t Peter get to get married and have a family?
Because he should know that as long as he is Spider-Man, and his identity being discovered is a possibility he puts those loved ones in grave danger. If he had truly learned from Ben’s death he would have done everything he could to not do such things.
I’m not saying he shouldn’t be able to find someone at all, but that person should not be someone who is unable to handle herself against his enemies.
Don’t even get me started on Peter and MJ having a kid, bringing a vulnerable innocent life into his dangerous lifestyle is about as irresponsible as one can get.
In short, Peter getting married went against everything the character was originally about. It destroyed whatever vestiges of Spider-Man left after Ditko left the book.
It became just another super hero book.
May 7th, 2008 at 8:17 pm
ElCoyote - This is a much better argument.
However, you’ve neatly defined everything that I always HATED most about Spider-Man, even when (hell, ESPECIALLY when) he and I had the most in common, demographically speaking.
I hated (and still hate) the idea that he should never be allowed to be truly happy, and that, in some sense, he should always be alone.
After all, by the time I started reading superhero comics, both Superman and Batman were already on that trip, so however much Peter’s emo made him unique in the Ditko era, THAT is what made him “just another superhero book” in my eyes.
And it’s more true now than ever, because EVERY superhero has been turned guilty and miserable and alone, except for the ones who have been turned into fascist sociopaths.
And quite frankly, the fact that both Spider-Man and Superman so often seemed to imply that a hero HAD to be chaste … well, that disturbed the HELL out of me as a little kid, and it’s one of the reasons why I QUIT reading comic books when I was EIGHT YEARS OLD, and I didn’t go back until I was in COLLEGE.
Once again, please note - USM is targeted toward teens who are presumably meant to identify with a teenage Peter Parker, and yet, THAT Peter Parker is NOT as isolated as his 616 counterpart, because his aunt and his girlfriend are in on his secret.
Indeed, having spent enough time with teenagers, I’ve come to the realization that a lot of them find “secret identities” to be a very difficult concept to accept in general, at least in part because they live in an age of Internet, in which there is no such thing as privacy.
When it’s common practice for teenage girls to take naked pictures of themselves and post them on public message boards, how are they supposed to relate to a character who DOESN’T want attention in “real life?”
May 8th, 2008 at 1:48 am
When Mary Jane “died in a plane crash” I kept reading the book out of habit more than anything, and grew to hate the “new status quo” of Peter living with Robbie Robertson’s kid and having a “wacky group of neighbors and a crazy dog” as his supporting cast. The main reason I stayed on is because rumors were floating around that Mary Jane was coming back. And then she did.
Only to leave again.
But I kept reading out of habit. There were rumors that Kevin Smith was going to take over the book and the first thing he wanted to do was bring back Mary Jane, but JMS ended up doing it in his run.
And he made the marriage work. They had their problems, but they loved each other and it poured through the page that they wanted nothing more than to be with each other and make their marriage work. At that point it was without a doubt the best Spider-Man monthly I had ever read.
And then it all went away. Why? So Peter could be a loser again? An idiot? So web-shooters would jam every single issue? I mean seriously, I’ve been flipping through the books as they come out (I’m not buying them, oh no. I stopped buying Amazing when Civil War happened, but that’s a whole different rant) and I’ve yet to see how these stories could NOT have been told with Peter married to Mary Jane.
They’ve tried to get rid of Mary Jane in the past. They’ve tried to replace a married Peter Parker with a single Peter Park in the past.
It never sticks.
I’ll keep reading Ultimate Spider-Man, where a bright, smart, likable Peter Parker has an awesome girlfriend named Mary Jane Watson. And if it ever comes out again, I’ll be picking up Spider-Man LOVES Mary Jane once more.
And when inside-out-jacket-future-Spider-Man shows up and knocks some sense into total-idiot-BND-Spider-Man and they team up to break out of Mephisto’s little bubble universe so he can be with Mary Jane again? THEN I’ll start buying Amazing.
May 8th, 2008 at 1:51 am
First off, considering how much of an echo chamber for Marvel PR Millarworld can be at times, your finding negative commentary on BND there is even more telling than you might realize.
Secondly - “Can’t we all just forgive, forget and move on to old school Peter Parker fun?”
Here’s the thing - I liked Peter Parker the adult. The responsible married man who didn’t let his guilt define his whole world. If they HAD created a separate title to showcase Peter Parker in older stories, pre-marriage, I would have shrugged, grinned and yes, enjoyed “old school Peter Parker fun”.
Instead, what we have here is Joe Quesada enforcing a flat-out tacky move that regresses the character in both terms of emotional maturity and depth. This is not “old school Peter Parker”, the photog who was always having trouble with dating and making the rent - this is a regressed man-child who lives with his Mom in his 30’s and seems okay with compromising his scruples for profits. If they had at least used some hackneyed time travel deus ex machina, at least that would have provided actual nostalgia to ram down our throats. The stories thus far have ranged from okay to simply asinine and to say that these stories “couldn’t be told with a married Spider-Man” insults my intelligence - unless of course, they mean to say that a married, grown-up Peter Parker would have too much dignity, maturity and emotional depth to behave as he has in recent issues.
The crux of it it, for me, is that OMD/BND not only insults the readers who’ve invested their time and money into Spider-Man and his relationship with MJ but more importantly, it insults every writer and artist who has taken the time to craft an enjoyable, touching story about Peter and MJ over the past few years. Tom Beland’s Web of Romance, to name just one story that shows how deep and touching the marriage could be, has been shoved down a metaphorical garbage disposal because Joey Q thinks telling interesting stories about a married man is too much work. If DC can craft interesting, intelligent stories about Lois Lane & Superman, The Flash & Linda West, Ralph & Sue Dibney, ect, ect, ect - declaring the Spider-Man/MJ marriage “stifling” and doing away with it is the same thing as flat-out announcing that Marvel writers are comparatively lazy storytellers who can’t see the forest for the trees.
Sorry to go off on a rant but this is a sore subject for me and I’ve had a lousy week.