Mike Manley, character designer for the Cartoon Network’s The Batman: The Brave and the Bold, talks about the show and fan reaction to it on the internet:
One of the things I enjoy about this new Batman cartoon is the fact we are going back to a kinder, friendlier Batman. A Dick Sprang version, which is the guiding design principle we are working from and there still is a slight echo of the BT styling, which is a nice break from the grim and gritty. Let’s face it, these cartoons are for children, young children 5-10,12 years old. Cereal eating, fruit rollup snacking, toy buying kids, not 30-something, 40-something bitter bee babymen who want these characters in adult situations. The message boards are already full of babymen angst about the show, how they hate the art, the idea of a kid friendly Batman and I have to just laugh at the rediculous comments. IMO one of the biggest resons comics suck ass and have since the 80′s is the rise and overtaking of the biz by the Babyman fan and the loss of kids reading comics as a hobby. Now we are stuck with an aginging fanbase with limited taste, long memories, a twisted taste where the comic heroes have to be dark, gritty, sexy, adult…REAL! Humor, the most popular form of comic in the world is the least popular form of comic in the direct market. Fans don’t realize what an aberation the direct market has become and how out of step it is with the rest of the comic reading world. I include it all, strips, manga, you name it, but superheroes are a niche with the smallest fanbase. The top books crack, what 100K? Try having a TV show with that number.
April 7th, 2008 at 6:57 am
Always liked Mike Manley’s work, now I like the guy.
The Direct Market has kept the comic biz out of the mainstream and has done nothing for the form, period.
This is why the babymen fanboys are always bothered by this ‘graphic novel’ boom, they know it could mean an end to the direct market that has catered to them and their weird fetishes for decades.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:41 am
You know, I agree with his point about the cartoon. But his dismissal of the entire comics industry en masse since the eighties is, to put it lightly, bullshit.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:55 am
I wasn’t a fan of the new Batman because I simply didn’t think it was any good. Since that now makes me a “babyman” in the eyes of this douchebag, I can now say I don’t like the new batman cartoon OR the idiot behind it.
April 7th, 2008 at 7:56 am
And on the subject of it being a kids’ orientated show – so are Teen Tians and Transformers:Animated. And yet both of those are great.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:08 am
I thought the old Batman Animated Series struck a good balance between dark and kid-friendly. Kids don’t want things to be as light-hearted as a lot of adults think they do.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:15 am
Mike Manley just might be my new hero. This B&tB cartoon sounds like a great idea.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:18 am
I agree with this guy wholeheartedly. And although initially I didn’t like the character designs, seeing as this guy is at the head, I am gonna check it out. Definitely.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:42 am
Hey, Mike! Thanks a lot for insulting the very fans – the ADULTS – who WERE going help RAISE your ratings by watching your TV show! We’re also the ones who give our kids their MONEY to buy your stupid toys. Not anymore, thanks to your pathetic insults!
April 7th, 2008 at 8:54 am
Batmansgirl: Call the Whaaaaaaaaaaaaambulance!
… Some people are just way too thin skinned sometimes.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:01 am
Pfft. The Joker on Batman:TAS may have given me nightmares at the age of eight, but that didn’t stop me from tuning in every damn time the show came on, because I thought it was so cool. To say that everything has to be fluffy just because it’s marketed to kids is an insult to the capability of children to understand and be entertained, especially the 10-12 market.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:10 am
Much of what he says is true, but why does CN have a hour of Naruto every Saturday even though that show is far more, I don’t want to say “intelligent,” but I will. Name one American produced animated show for kids that has the range of emotions and depth of character that these imported shows have?
April 7th, 2008 at 9:13 am
My daughter who is now 6 has been a bit fan of The Batman show for the past three years. So yeah, only old men liked that gritty show.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:17 am
kwaku:
Avatar. Maybe they don’t show copious blood, but the inter-character relationships are very intelligent, and they still manage to pull off some very “adult” things. See the episode “City of Walls and Secrets” from season two for a prime example of the kinds of things they get away with, while still being marketed as a kids’ show.
April 7th, 2008 at 9:41 am
[i]… Some people are just way too thin skinned sometimes.[/i]
Nope. Some people just don’t know how to properly produce a decent TV show that fans of ALL AGES can enjoy. Clearly Mike Manley will never be as great as Bruce Timm or James Tucker whose very own Batman Beyond episode he directed won an EMMY.
[i]Name one American produced animated show for kids that has the range of emotions and depth of character that these imported shows have?[/i]
Batman: The Animated Series, anyone?
April 7th, 2008 at 10:11 am
People need to put down their Haterade and take a few steps back.
Don’t forget that Batman: The Animated Series first aired during primetime, at night, after most kids went to bed. Even after it moved to Kids’ WB, it and its successor Batman Beyond, were marketed towards older children.
I used to babysit a couple of little boys, and sometimes I’d bring my laptop and show them episodes of JLU. But I always felt that I had to be careful showing it to those boys, because it just seemed too mature for them. It’s why it was on Toonami, after all. Because Toonami was geared towards older children. It still is. You can’t compare this show with something like Naruto, because that too is for older children. Heck, most anime shows aren’t made for kids.
Brave and the Bold is being geared towards the all-ages set, and that’s wonderful. It’s not supposed to be a show for the bitter fan who keeps his JLU Elongated Man action figure in the package so his value will increase. It’s for the little boys I babysat for, who tied towels around their necks and ran around the house with lightsabers yelling “RAR, I’M BATMAN!”
So seriously, quit bringing everybody down, grumpy fans. If you want B:TAS, go pop in a DVD. I look forward to this series.
April 7th, 2008 at 10:13 am
Mike Manley, underestimating kids since (insert whatever year here)…
April 7th, 2008 at 10:48 am
Wow, what an asshole.
April 7th, 2008 at 10:52 am
Quote: Don’t forget that Batman: The Animated Series first aired during primetime, at night, after most kids went to bed. Even after it moved to Kids’ WB, it and its successor Batman Beyond, were marketed towards older children.
False. Batman:TAS had its first season aired at 4:30 PM during the week, prime after school kiddy viewing time. The one time it did start airing episodes during primetime, namely Sunday evenings, it did badly due to people ignoring it in favor of 60 Minutes and that second airing spot was pulled.
April 7th, 2008 at 11:27 am
Mike’s a great artist and a nice guy, but what’s his point?
The show isn’t marketed to the babymen he so disdains, it’s not the audience he wants or the executives who run the show want, so why does some guys on a message board complaining about it bother him so much? The post makes a good point, but it’s also settling a score with something that doesn’t seem revelvant or much of a threat to him.
April 7th, 2008 at 11:28 am
Bwahahaha, he’s so right.
And stupid fanboys and girls on here will criticize because THEY’RE who he’s talking about.
April 7th, 2008 at 12:04 pm
Let’s see how many seasons this one will last.
April 7th, 2008 at 12:57 pm
I don’t see how this guy’s angry response is any more mature or reasonable than any of the negative comments I’ve seen of the BATB preview images.
I could understand his anger though, as people are just tearing down something he probably put a lot of time and effort towards based on one inconsequential picture. The “babymen” response is still pretty lame in my book. He could wait a few months and let his work speak for itself.
April 7th, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Anybody who disagrees with Mike Manley or thinks his comments are out of line is too stupid to know what’s good for them. He’s EXACTLY right. This sense of fan entitlement to nothing but grim-n-gritty garbage where bleak is the only thing on the menu has been choking the life out of comic books over last 20+ years, and it’s killed Batman outright. Every single, solitary word he says is dead-on accurate. I’m glad people in the industry are finally realizing how low things have sunken and are trying to right the sinking ship. And if this show helps bring that along, so much the better.
I am more than ever behind this series. Anybody who thinks Manley has no right to call them on their selfishness can go stand in the corner with their dunce caps on. I have no tolerance for such “fans.”
April 7th, 2008 at 1:14 pm
A few people have mentioned Avatar and Naruto and the range showed in those shows. I think that range is exactly what Mr. Manley is talking about.
Avatar and Naruto have some deep stuff, but they also have moments of extreme silliness. My niece rolls on the ground in laughter when we watch Naruto, then gets extremely quiet for the serious moments, then laughs again when Naruto’s eyes turn into hearts looking at Sakura.
I don’t think Mr. Manley is saying the cartoons shouldn’t have the serious stuff. I think he’s saying that a lot of adult fans on the internet complain too much about the silly stuff. Some people want to see superhero cartoons be dark and serious from beginning to end.
Can you imagine the fan outrage if a Batman cartoon had a fart joke in it, complete with a colorful cloud coming out of a hero’s butt? That happened in Naruto shortly after a serious moment when a character proved herself as a fighter. It’s not that the kids can’t handle the drama. It’s that some of the adults on the internet can’t handle the silly.
April 7th, 2008 at 1:47 pm
he’s pissed ‘cuz people criticized his show sight unseen, so he’s criticizing “babymen” based on nothing but stereotypes — it’s the circus of life (or circle). won’t someone think of the children !? (oh, wait…)
April 7th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Regardless of his views on fan entitlement, the statement “comics suck ass and have since the 80′s,” is pretty profoundly ignorant on just about every level.
April 7th, 2008 at 5:06 pm
The guy was definitely more abrasive than necessary. I agree with some of what he said, but not the insulting way in which he said it.
It’s worth noting that he isn’t the guy in charge of the series. He’s a character designer, but that’s just one guy out of a lot of people.
April 7th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
“The guy was definitely more abrasive than necessary. I agree with some of what he said, but not the insulting way in which he said it.”
No, if anything he wasn’t insulting enough.
April 7th, 2008 at 5:23 pm
So what? He wouldn’t want these guys to watch his show anyway. Who cares if they bitch about it? Are a legion of fanboys going to march into kids’ houses every saturday morning and smash televisions? Probably not.
April 7th, 2008 at 8:04 pm
What Manley said was abrasive, but, uh, people are attacking him and his work. And I agree with nearly all of what he’s saying. I’m only getting into comics now as an adult because as a kid I thought the stuff that was out looked crappy and boring. (It isn’t any less crappy and boring now, but it doesn’t look as bad as it used to.) If I did see something I was interested in, there was so much back reading required that I would just read a book instead. This is why I didn’t get into the X-Men, Fantastic Four, Batman, or Spider-Man comics even though I watched all of those cartoons before I was old enough to go to 1st grade, and a large part of why I don’t buy those comics now.
And I was a mature kid; I watched Star Trek TNG and read a lot of books, so I’m not the best example. But this is the same ridiculousness as when adults complain about plot elements in “Avatar” and “Harry Potter”. I’m sorry, did the children’s book disappoint you? Did the cartoon targeted to seven- to nine-year-olds come across as shallow? The people complaining really do have an elevated sense of self-worth. Have any of you heard the phrase “G-rated equals ‘G’ money”? Disney is pretty much the example of this, and DC does it much better than Marvel does (this being another example).
April 7th, 2008 at 11:10 pm
Sounds like Manley’s got a bad case of the Nostalgias. You know the type, where the sufferer decides whatever was popular when he was ten is the greatest thing ever and all other interpretations are laughably inferior. Adam West Batman was popular when he was a kid, thus he’s deluded himself into thinking every generation of children, from now until the end of time, wants that interpretation. And that’s where he fails as a cartoon creator. You don’t succeed by telling kids what they want. You succeed by having them tell you what THEY want.
Nearly every kid who sees this show is going to have gone to see The Dark Knight first. They’re going to be looking for that version of Batman, and they’re going to be disappointed. That’s just a missed opportunity. It’s a shame Manley is too wrapped up in dreams of his own childhood to realize how his business works.
April 7th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
Childish insults and ad hominem attacks never help anyone’s case. He’s acting just as stupid as he thinks the people who criticize his work are. No, the industry doesn’t need a constant flow of grim and dark stories, but neither does it need to keep a laugh track rolling at all times.
Manley seems to think his slice of nostalgia cake is better than everyone else’s, but hey, sorry pal, it just don’t work that way. If you wanna do a Batman cartoon that focuses on being campy, fine. Go nuts, have a ball. But you should have seen the fanboy’s reaction coming a mile away, so don’t be a douche about it. A lot of us grew up eating cereal and eating fruit roll-ups watching Batman: The Animated Series; the campy 70′s stuff was just a long forgotten dream by that point. To an entire generation, Batman is, and always will be, a dark show with gothic visuals and dramatic stories.
April 8th, 2008 at 1:12 am
“Nearly every kid who sees this show is going to have gone to see The Dark Knight first.”
Not even remotely true. Tons and tons of 5 to 10 year olds do not see PG-13 movies.
*Everything* is a missed opportunity. Doing a dark and gritty version of Batman is not going to appeal to some people and doing a lighter version of Batman is not going to appeal to some people. So it really doesn’t mean much to say that his is a missed opportunity.
The point he’s trying to make, abrasively or not, is that variations on the character are valid. We’ve already gotten a serious, adult friendly version of Batman with BtAS, it lasted through several shows for over a decade. His show is aiming at a certain audience and the fact that it isn’t us doesn’t mean it is a bad way to go.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:39 pm
“Rediculous”.
April 8th, 2008 at 12:59 pm
i agree with him wholly. i still don’t like the art. a kid-friendly batman can have better art.
if they really want to target the 5-10 year olds… why don’t they produce an animated series version of Tiny Titans. i LOVE that comic and i’m neither a 5-10, 12 year old, or a babyman that can’t appreciate a well-drawn kid-friendly batman show.
and DID you see they way they murdered the new Jaime Reyes Blue Beetle? what’s up with those red eyes? seriously. who markets this crap?
April 9th, 2008 at 8:23 am
I like Manley’s art and spend much more than I should on TwoMorrows stuff but jeez, ranting about Batman cartoons in a comics art blog kind of puts one squarely in the babyman camp, doesn’t it?
A geek taunting geeks for being excessively geeky, I can understand that drawing ire. What, you think you’re better than me, Mr. Glass House? That kind of thing.
If I may be excessively geeky for a moment, let me say that whoever drew that first image is sure as hell no Dick Sprang.
April 9th, 2008 at 10:56 pm
He’s mean-spirited and spells a couple of his words incorrectly, but the man is not wrong.
April 10th, 2008 at 7:16 pm
hmm…this guy is kinda mean for a director of a kids show. Yeah, I understand thats its a kids show(reaaaally little kids) and all, but wasn’t batman originally created by Kane to be dark and gritty? I myself am 14 and not embarressed to say that yes, i do watch Legion of superheroes and The Batman. So what? all my friends do too, and my art teacher does as well. If this man wants to make a happy cartoon for kids, i think he’s got the wrong hero. Why not give a hand at captain marvel instead, or maybe even superman? They are happier than Batman. Kids don’t like being treated with safety gloves either, i kinda am one, so i would know.
April 11th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
I agree 100% with Mike. I admitedly read a lot more silver age throwbacks from both companies (All-Star Superman and MC2′s Spider-Girl), and I can swing both ways since “MY” Batman was not only Kevin Conry, but simotaniously Adam West.
We need old-school again…there will come again a time where “dark and gritty” will be the flavour of the month, but until then I want to see some Dick Sprang and Bill Finger emulations. They have long since earned interpretations
April 13th, 2008 at 11:03 pm
I think it’s in the best interest that I post what the definition of ‘Babyman’ means since everyone seems to misunderstand the term or feels like Mike is talking down to you. It’s only a handful that he’s talking about but it’s this group that keeps the industry going… into the ground.
From hanging out with Mike, since he lives close to me, and hearing his thoughts in person on many occasions, I feel I have a good grip on his official definition. He can correct me if I’m off.
‘Babymen’ is a term to describe the adult nerds who still live at in the basement and rush into the comic shops each week to get their ‘Gem Mint 10′ copies of Infinite Civil Crisis War of the 52 issues of dogs*&t, while they stroke themselves to Jim Lee’s and Michael Turner’s crap, and like to art direct a commission in artist alley of Wolverine to make sure that every hair on Wolverine’s nut sack is in the right place while they argue over who’s stronger: Superman or the Hulk? And who draws a nicer titted Wonder Woman: Adam Hughes or Terry Dodson?
Who know who you are…
These are the people who are keeping the industry going. The same idiots who bitch and moan over Marvel’s handling of ‘One More Day’ for Spidey and yet STILL go out and buy all 4 variant covers for that series while they swear that they won’t support it anymore. Their completist nerd nature wins out and Marvel keeps putting out garbage because it DOES sell…only to the wrong crowd.
For me a big issue is that mostly ALL the comics are trying for some kind of reality that is above what I think a comic should be. I personally like comics that have some energy and flair to the art than most of the phototracing that is done anymore. By Phototracing I mean comic guys who don’t do a David Mack and retrace someone else’s art but someone who relies so heavily on photos that it makes the finished book look stiff. There’s no POW that Kirby or Ditko did. Even a Neal Adams was truly awesome. The effort to make EVERYTHING so damn realistic as to validate the art form itself is downright silly! It’s a COMIC, people! While I love Alex Ross’ work, if every comic was like that I’d get bored with it quick. The Lands, Larks, Eptings, Maleevs, Macks, McNivens, and especially the Jimenezs of the comic world should learn that less is more. This is why Romita is King (The father not the son).
American comics have this need to still validate themselves to the world since it’s still a red headed bastard stepchild in this country. I don’t care how mainstream the industry is said to be, it’s still looked at as something for lesser people in terms of reading. Is going so realistic in style the way to do it? I think not. Manga’s appeal is such that it’s more fun and expressive. I wish Spidey was that way again (This ‘Brand New Day’ stuff blows and I like Dan Slott) and how I can’t wait to see how the new Batman cartoon turns out! Where’s the FUN???
April 15th, 2008 at 4:05 pm
You know what? My 6 year old daughter loves Batman: B&B. Yes she likes Batman TAS, Teen Titans and Avatar, but she didn’t ask for a single Batman tie-in product until she saw Brave & Bold.
I’m a 40 year old woman who’s been reading comics regularly since the early 70s and I agree that the direct market and fanboys are crushing the comics industry.
April 16th, 2008 at 9:31 am
“You know what? My 6 year old daughter loves Batman: B&B.” When did it air?
June 14th, 2010 at 10:44 pm
Michael Manley,
I am interested in getting a quote for 8 1/2″ by 11″ black and white (inked) picture for a script I created. Of course, there will be many pictures.
Your work in Judge Parker is just right for my script to create a storyboard in connection to heroes of ancient Greece, modern days, and futurism (city on the moon) – a fantasy script PG rating.
Please create a quick response for I have lots of time during the summer.
Mark Adams
freechurl@yahoo.com
January 17th, 2011 at 11:38 am
Daaaammmm howd you get that layout yo! its FREESSHH!!
January 17th, 2011 at 9:26 pm
Wow, what a great read! Thanks so much for your fantastic writing, i’ll be reading regularly from now on.
March 29th, 2012 at 2:39 pm
A home plan to suit your own situation and needs by adding the refinements you have gleaned from other house plans. Take advantage of Our Plan Customization Service — it makes customizing floor plans to your exact needs easy and affordable. We’ll present you a fast and efficient Customizer Quote with the cost of your desired custom home designs.