Want to be depressed? Take a look at Marc Oliver-Frisch’s analysis of the DC sales figures for February, where good books like The Brave and The Bold are being treated remarkably shoddily by the market:
This book is tanking spectacularly. The Brave and the Bold #10 was the last issue drawn by George Pérez, apparently, so the numbers are unlikely to improve.
To be honest, you can’t blame DC for giving an artist of Pérez’s caliber something else to draw. For whatever reason, people are dropping this book like it was the plague. The year-on-year performance is a disaster by any standard.
I have to ask: Why have orders for the series dropped so dramatically (over 50% in its first year)? It’s a great book with a “name” creative team that consistently delivers on a regular basis. Why aren’t you all reading it, readers?
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:35 pm
I’m REALLY not into Mark Waid’s writing. Would probably buy it if it was written by Kurt Busiek, for example.
Best,
Hunter (Pedro Bouça)
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:38 pm
I’d guess the dropping orders have less to do with people dropping it than with retailers having over-estimated the demand for the book to begin with. The format of not having any tentpole characters, ala Batman during the Haney/ Aparo B&B, is going to make it hard to attract a large audience.
With that said, it is a REALLY outstanding book – perhaps the best being published by DC proper.
April 3rd, 2008 at 1:52 pm
I am reading it, but it is a title that I read that I am reallllly reluctant to recommend to people.
I am positively evangelical about comics and recommend bunches of books to established comics readers and non-comics readers on a daily basis. Brave and the Bold is one that I only feel comfortable recommending to people who have a very specific and very established comics reading history.
On the handful of occasions that I’ve recommended it to people who didn’t explicitly grow up reading George Perez books, because I thought they *might* like it, watching them glance through it has been the fastest I have ever watched anyone’s eyes glaze over. All three times it took about six pages for them to close the book.
I think that it’s a really good book, but it’s a book that has a very, very, very specific audience and everything about it (content, story-telling style) is pretty off-putting to people outside of that audience.
Add to that the fact that, by design, there are no *big events* or *sweeping changes* taking place that would make casual fans feel obligated to read it to know what’s going on, and….
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:04 pm
I’m a huge Perez fan. I will usually give Waid a look. I read the first issue. Thought it was okay. Couldn’t find the second issue, so that was that. I tried at least three different retailers. I was on the fence about the series after reading the first issue. Not being able to find the second issue was the nail in the coffin. I was thinking of picking up the trades, but I’m on the fence there, too.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:07 pm
Largely ditto Ed Ward’s comments and have the opposite view of Pedro Bouça.
I’m supporting it for the use of obscure characters. Still, it’s clearly a book written for 40-60 year olds who dig nostalgia. But it’s not really the kind of nostalgic approach that appeals to me. DC’s “Silver Age” books from several years ago – now that was the way to do it! It’s not just the characters or story approach that provoke fond nostalgia, it’s the era graphics, house ads, etc., flat coloring, etc. too.
I’ll probably drop it at #12- the last issue was just not much fun to read.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:08 pm
Largely ditto Ed Ward’s comments and have the opposite view of Pedro Bouça.
I’m supporting it for the use of obscure characters. Still, it’s clearly a book written for 40-60 year olds who dig nostalgia. But it’s not really the kind of nostalgic approach that appeals to me. DC’s “Silver Age” books from several years ago – now that was the way to do it! It’s not just the characters or story approach that provoke fond nostalgia, it’s the era graphics, house ads, etc., flat coloring, etc. too.
I’ll probably drop it at #12- the last issue was just not much fun to read.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:09 pm
Love Perez. Love Waid.
But there’s nothing terribly compelling about the never-ending story here.
It’s nice that old DCU favorites pop in and out for their moment of angst, but the tale just isn’t that strong, imho, and its resolution seems light years away.
I’d suggest self-contained issues or 2-3 part story arcs at most.
I’d like to see ithis book continue. I guess Scott Kollins is up next, but it’s too bad Ordway won’t be hanging around.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:14 pm
I think the mixed structure of the book tends to work against it — having an overall continuing storyline is kind of at odds with the self-contained, rotating nature of a teamup book. These days, I get the feeling that readers tend to pick books and stick with them rather than sampling an issue here or there, and a book without a stable cast is one that might be hard for some folks to put on their pull lists.
Some of the character choices have been a bit odd too. One of the early issues featured Supergirl and Lobo — there’s a kind of amusing contrast there, but for the most part I’m not sure those two have a lot of fans in common. (And if anybody does really like both Lobo and the current version of Supergirl, they’re probably not really a Waid/Perez type of fan.)
(I actually kind of wonder if the title itself is another, admittedly minor strike against it. If your DC knowledge doesn’t go back far enough — I’m only dimly aware of the original B&TB myself — it sounds kind of hokey and/or like a soap opera.)
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
i bought the trade, and i wasn’t that thrilled by it. i thought it was good but something i proabbly would never go back to.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:16 pm
You can’t read what you don’t see sitting on the shelf. Instead of asking folks why they aren’t reading it, ask retailers why they aren’t ordering it.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:17 pm
B&B appeals to intelligent readers who appreciate the history of DC’s universe and the caring attention Waid and Perez give to the characters they use in their stories. Such readers have by and large stopped reading DC comics, since the bulk of the DCU is now run by overgrown fanboys with dismemberment fetishes.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:18 pm
I don’t think I’ve ever read it, but there’s no good reason why. Maybe it’s just because I don’t read a lot of main character superhero stuff. I read Manhunter, Birds of Prey, and Checkmate- books that are more on the fringes of the DCU so that I don’t have to follow big events. Maybe I’m just lumping Brave and the Bold in with that, I don’t know. My comic shop owner says it’s good.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:24 pm
This topic played out in a recent Grumpy Old Fan column as well (http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/03/27/out-damnd-plot/). I recommend reading the tread there, but because I don’t want to type out the same thoughts again, here’s a slightly edited version of the two comments I left over there:
“I started B&B based on the high profile names alone… The ubuer-mysterious Book plot seemed to be the only thing tying this series together. It felt disjointed from one issue to the next. After 6 or so issues, I dropped the thing because it felt like it was going nowhere, and there was no hook to keep me waiting until things fell into place.
For me, B&B is a book based solely on creator name recognition, a premise (‘Look! A Team-Up! In a classic comic title!’), and one wonked out, stretched-out plot that was made harder to follow by a lack of central character(s).”
And later:
“…For B&B, I realized by issue 4 or so that I was *only* buying it because of the creator names attached. The characters weren’t written badly, but by the next issue they were mostly gone as the plot made a 90-degree turn. By the time I left, my description of the plot would have been, ‘someone’s looking for the Book of Destiny and others need to protect it. Don’t ask.’
…I’m DEAD TIRED of being told, ‘don’t worry if it’s confusing now, this will all make sense in umpteen issues.’ Maybe it will in trade, but if a publisher wants me to keep buying the monthly floppies, they either need to have it make sense much earlier, OR start out with such a strong hook that I want to read more, OR a continuing character to either love or enjoy to hate, OR character moments that tell you something NEW about that character, OR cliffhangers to make the next issue a must-read, OR themes that tell me something about myself or society.. I don’t know… something. But this book seemed to just offer up ‘Waid/Perez love the DCU’ as the only big reason for me to wait for the plot to come together and start to make sense. [Maybe others found their hook; I didn't.]
I think B&B had the potential to be a great book, but for some reason it didn’t click. I think that was because the plot was much less important than (and built around) the long list of heroes that Waid/Perez wanted to tackle. In many ways, it reminds me of DC Challenge! Fun for a bit, until you start to care about what’s actually happening and it all falls apart. Only B&B doesn’t have the excuse of multiple creators not knowing where to go next with the story and cliffhanger they were given (that book’s hook). No, B&B was seemingly planned out, which makes it all the worse for coming across as so haphazard and pointless.”
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:33 pm
I ranted about this in another thread near the end of the last month. B&B started as my favorite new book of 2007, and I dropped it from my pull list after issue #6. Why? Because the story just unraveled. I thought it was going to be a Batman/GL arc, and the next arc (a few issues later) would team two different characters.
I didn’t understand that EACH ISSUE was going to be continuing, never-ending story that throws two different characters together each month. By #6 it became something of a mess. GL & Supergirl was fun. But Supergirl and Lobo? Um, why? Then Lobo quickly leaves, and along the way Blue Beetle, the LOSH, Adam Strange, and then (as a total deus ex machina) the Challengers of the Unknown show up to save the day.
At that point, I thought the arc was over. Seemed like a good stopping point. Turns out, it wasn’t! Regardless, I’d have enough. There was no consistency to the book, aside from “The Book” that was being followed and fought over throughout the storyline. It wasn’t a bad story, but so much of it just seemed unnecessary.
Oh, and for the record, I’m not an “overgrown fanboy with dismembership fetishes.” Those aren’t the books I enjoy, but nothing about B&B compelled me to keep buying it after #6 either.
Personally, I’d rather see B&B present arcs that are 2,3, maybe 4, issues long and keep it the same two characters teamed up for the entire arc. Doesn’t mean there can’t be guest appearances, just not the mish-mash that I feel B&B has been.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:42 pm
I’m reading it and enjoying it, though the long story arcs with an ever changing cast do seem to sap some of the energy from the book.
I’m in agreement with those who suggest a better approach might be 1, 2 or a maximum of 3 issue arcs with at least one of the co-stars being constant throughout the arc. Some frequent “done-in-ones” would probably help, too.
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:43 pm
Shawn, I listed the link to that other thread. I’m glad you mentioned the Challengers showing up as deus ex machina. All that confusing, rambling build, only to have THAT? And STILL no end in sight?
(BTW, you’re not as lazy as I am; I just copied and edited my old posts
)
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:46 pm
The Brave & The Bold was a horrendous storyline that had no ties to DCU continuity and featured a lot of characters I had no interest in [The Silent Knight, The Challengers, Metamorpho] and crappy villains [The Lords of Luck??!? Megistus??!!?]
April 3rd, 2008 at 2:55 pm
I stopped buying the book when Perez left, because I was only in it for the art. The story, like most of what DC is doing right now is way too bland for my taste.
I also feel the same way in that I’ll stop buying Green Arrow/Black Canary when Cliff Chiang leaves.
The problem is that the creative teams arwe not mixing well with their books and it shows.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:26 pm
“I guess Scott Kollins is up next”
So the artist from Marvel’s equivalent and canceled Marvel Team-Up is taking over?
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm
Hey bjooks, thanks for the kind words… And you nailed it. All the buildup, traveling to distant worlds, and even the 31st century, just to have the Challs show up at the last minute for the big save? I was done at that point.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:31 pm
#18 – I still want to know if “Fecal Yeti” and “Anal Surprise” (the latter posts on the main ‘Rama pages all the time) are at all related.
Wait, what am I saying? I don’t REALLY want to know the answer to that.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:33 pm
Why I don’t buy Brave and the Bold:
1 – It’s boring.
2 – I don’t like George Perez’s artwork.
3 – Super heroes.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:35 pm
I read the first few issues and it didn’t do anything for me. So I dropped it. Simple as that.
April 3rd, 2008 at 3:36 pm
No relation to “Anal Surprise”. I don’t know who that is. I just started reading the comments section recently.
April 3rd, 2008 at 4:45 pm
Huh. I still think it’s a lot of fun, even though the overarching Megistus story is better in theory than execution.
The odd thing is how fans always clamor for more “old-school” superhero books, and then are never satified when that demand is seemingly met. I suspect this is because lots of people throw around terms like “old-school” and “traditional without understanding what they mean. Waid’s work here *absolutely* reads like older, pre-decompression comics, and I’ve been having a total blast with it, despite its faults.
Also, Ryan Dunlavey: If you don’t like superhero comics, why are you posting in this thread? Or reading Brave & the Bold, for that matter? Seems a little silly.
April 3rd, 2008 at 5:11 pm
Reno –
The fact that it reads like older, pre-decompression comics is, I’m pretty sure, one of the reasons it’s a tough sell to contemporary readers. The storytelling is very much a part of a different era of comics and, I suspect, doesn’t ‘click’ with a lot of people explicitly because of that.
I also think that people who may not innately respond to that style of storytelling make adjustments when they are reading older work, because they expect that storytelling style going in, but will not make that adjustment for new books.
I know that it definitely takes a lot more effort for me as a reader to find an ‘in’ to a book by George Perez than it takes me for almost any other contemporary books, and it it’s more work for me to stay involved. The adjustment in my headspace feels very similar to the adjustment in headspace I need to make as a film viewer when I’m watching something from the silent-era as opposed to something contemporary.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:38 pm
I quit reading at #2, or whenever GL and Supergirl teamed up. I just didn’t care after that, especially when it went back to Earth and Batman “just happened to pop by” Blue Beetle or something.
And Hal should have totally tapped that.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Honestly, once Waid left to be an EIC, it just didn’t have the same *pop* for me.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:33 pm
Wow. I had assumed that the low readership was just due to low promotion and not enough people giving it a shot, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.
B&B is easily my favorite comic set in the main DCU. Ordway is a step down from Perez, true, but his artwork expresses a set of values that’s sorely lacking in most of the more successful comics.
In just about each issue, everything has worked for me: the voicing, the condensed story telling, the narrative devices. The only thing that hasn’t worked for me were some of Supergirl’s interactions w/ GL and Lobo. If I’d be uncomfortable showing my 9 year old niece a scene w/ Supergirl, then the property hasn’t been handled correctly
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:45 pm
If it were a series of done-in-ones, or 2-parters, then I’d pick it up once in a while. But the solicits looked boring and the art looked over-inked.
April 3rd, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Where is this “name” creative team you’re talking about? When was the last time Waid sold a book above this level based on his name? He was fired from the F.F. the first time for putting up numbers like this after the $.09 issue. The lone exception is 52 where Waid was one of four writers.
George Perez is great. If you take away his Avengers and Avengers/JLA, he hasn’t sold a book at a high level in twenty years. DC should have let Perez finish the Titans “Games” graphic novel.
This is a nostalgia book with no core characters to be nostalgic about. This series had good art and a weak story.
April 3rd, 2008 at 11:52 pm
I recently read the first hardcover, loved it, and was ashamed for not supporting it, even if I have not been the biggest Waid fan for a very long time.
But this book is pure gold. This is the Mark Waid well all flocked to in 1996 and who was gone by 1998. This is a Mark Waid that’s learned to live again.
The fact that Perez was yanked off this for yet another round of Geoff Johns stupid wankery make me want to puke.
April 4th, 2008 at 1:59 am
Waid is the man but you can ask Joe Quesada why I’m not buying any comics these days.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:37 am
Matches: “I’d guess the dropping orders have less to do with people dropping it than with retailers having over-estimated the demand for the book to begin with.”
That certainly seems to have been the case with the first couple of issues here – after all, retailers need a while to figure out how many copies they can sell off the shelf and how many late-comers they’ll have to accomodate.
At issue #10 of a given run, though, there’s been plenty of time to gauge those factors. If sales are still dropping by ten percent at this stage, it means consumers are jumping ship.
April 4th, 2008 at 8:56 am
To “Fecal Yeti”: I haven’t seen Anal Surprise show up in the blog section mention, but he frequently comments over on the main page stuff. He was all over the place during the Spider-Man OMD/BND debates… And his choice of screen name was the, um, butt of many jokes.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:48 am
I am really surprised by low sales of this title, because I think it is among the best written and illustrated titles DC is publishing right now. The book is tremendously fun and not just in action but in humor as well, has plots where things actually happen and the art so far has been great to me, and will continue to be so when Scott Kolins takes over. Maybe the problem lies in it not being connected to a million crossovers. I would recommend to book to almost anyone.
April 4th, 2008 at 11:33 am
Ed – You’re totally spot-on, especially about people “making adjustments” when reading older work. Thanks for articulating something that I couldn’t quite wrap my brain around when I originally posted.
April 4th, 2008 at 12:44 pm
I know just as much about DC continuity and characters as the next Marvel zombie, but I’ve found B&tB to be a thoroughly enjoyable comicbook. The overarching story arc would be off-putting to my month-to-month reading experience if it wasn’t for the fact that Waid and Perez’ storytelling is so good. Ed Ward’s comment about adjusting your mindset to read is spot on.
April 4th, 2008 at 2:35 pm
I’m still laughing at that comment about Ordway being a “step-down” from Perez.
April 4th, 2008 at 4:02 pm
I Love it, I read it, I buy it.
April 4th, 2008 at 6:00 pm
Borna: The problem is that there aren’t a “million crossovers”? I’m not sure what you’re getting at. I think a lot of people are burned out to high hell on x-overs (I know I AM!).
If anything, the book suffers from too many x-overs. Not x-overs with other books, but x-overs with too many different characters showing up each and every issue. I have this feeling that a lot of readers weren’t expecting that when Brave & Bold started its run. Not with an ongoing story that seemingly has no end, at least.
April 4th, 2008 at 9:00 pm
Reno- Brave and the Bold seemed like a title I would like – Mark Waid writing old-school superhero team-ups outside of DC’s mega-continuity mess I tried the first few issues, even with George Perez on art (who I don’t think is a bad artist, just far from my favorite). After a few issues I decided I didn’t like it so I stopped reading it, end of story. And I actually like super heroes, it’s just that something like 95-99% of todays super hero comics fail to entertain me personally. My apologies for not being clear.
April 4th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Reno- Brave and the Bold seemed like a title I would like – Mark Waid writing old-school superhero team-ups outside of DC’s mega-continuity mess. I tried the first few issues, even with George Perez on art (who I don’t think is a bad artist, just far from my favorite) and I decided I didn’t like it so I stopped reading it, end of story.
I actually like super heroes, it’s just that something like 95-99% of todays super hero comics fail to entertain me personally. My apologies for not being clear.
April 4th, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Ryan said:
“I actually like super heroes, it’s just that something like 95-99% of todays super hero comics fail to entertain me personally.”
_____
Maybe you’ve outgrown superheroes. I never will. That’s just the way I am.
(And I was thinking of posting about how deep that hole is that you are standing in because it has an echo.)
April 5th, 2008 at 9:35 am
One of my favorite books from any company
right now.
Gail
April 5th, 2008 at 12:22 pm
I read the first few issues but gave up on it. I have always LOVED George Perez’s artwork (70′s Avengers, JLA, Titans, long break, back to Avengers, then Avengers/JLA, etc etc) but I think this was a turning point for me.
I picked this up to hoping to recapture a bit of the wonder I had with those old 80′s comics, but now I realize I just can’t get into them anymore. George Perez’s artwork was giving me a headache! Heresy! But it’s true …
[ Additional note: When you read those 80's crossover comics again ("Which way do we go now, Blue Beetle?" "I don't know, Aquaman!") you realize their time is maybe gone for good. ]
April 5th, 2008 at 1:34 pm
I love B and the B, but why is disliking it such a crime?
April 5th, 2008 at 3:44 pm
There’s just TOO MUCH stuff to buy — both superhero and non. I can’t keep up and decided not to even start with B&TB, in addition, because it sounded like a finite series that’d end once Perez left and Waid got bored.