Tom Brevoort on artists using photo reference (in response to this image by Greg Land, in particular; the animated version showing just how often Land re-uses the same poses, as well):
[E]every artist uses scrap to some degree. The history of comics is cluttered with artists who’d swipe their way to fame and glory. Now, today, the technology makes it all the easier to pull from all sorts of other sources as well–photographs or 3-D models or digital images or whatever. But it’s really all in how you use it. I wouldn’t hire a guy I didn’t think could draw the story effectively, but if the guy can do it, then he can do it. A buddy of mine from my art school days had a saying about art that I still use today: “If it looks good, then it IS good.” There’s more to what a guy like Greg Land brings to his page than his scrap, and that’s evidenced by the sales of the projects he draws–if the readership unilaterally decided to turn on him because of the way he uses sources in his artwork, then he’d probably have to approach things another way. But that hasn’t happened–there’s a tempest-in-a-teapot among a small group of people online, but that’s about it.
Swiper, NO SWIPING!
Comment by Shaun — April 2, 2008 @ 12:53 pm
I’m so depressed that I get that “swiper no swiping” remark.
Comment by Court — April 2, 2008 @ 1:47 pm
GO DIEGO, GO DIEGO!
Comment by Shaun — April 2, 2008 @ 1:58 pm
The glaring logical error there is the ‘as evidence by the sales.’ Greg Land relying on Pornface (and Pornbody) swipes gets good sales from nerdy male readership? GETOUTTAHERE.
Comment by Dean Trippe — April 2, 2008 @ 2:46 pm
How is that a logical error? I’m hosting the one GIF and I kind of agree with T-voort.
I don’t like the swipes. I don’t like the porn face. However– plenty of people like it, or don’t dislike it, to the point where sales are fine on books that he’s on.
It makes perfect sense. Marvel is a business, and if you aren’t adjusting their bottom line up or down, what reason do they have to care? Talk is cheap.
nerdy male readership
Can we let this ridiculous self-loathing garbage die, already?
Comment by david brothers — April 2, 2008 @ 3:08 pm
Can we stop blaming “nerdy males” for everything? I mean, either nerdy males are the ones causing a tempest in a teapot over Greg Land swiping, or nerdy males are trying to defend Greg Land, depending on who you talk to. Greg Land sells not only because some people like his work but because he is placed on major books with talented writers that many people like to buy. Blaming this on a “nerdy male readership” is a flip, easy comment to make and counterproductive to any kind of constructive discussion. And I don’t even *like* Greg Land. But the problem isn’t dudes jerking off to his stuff, it’s people who don’t want to drop Ed Brubaker’s Uncanny X-Men and are willing to overlook his art to get the story, a group of which I am part of. So hey, I’m the “problem”, why not yell at me instead of a convenient, cheap straw man?
Comment by David Uzumeri — April 2, 2008 @ 3:13 pm
Brevoort, once again with the cool and calm, mind numbingly obvious answer.
Comment by ejulp — April 2, 2008 @ 3:28 pm
But yeah, I agree with David as well.
Comment by ejulp — April 2, 2008 @ 3:30 pm
Popular = Good.
Wait, someone check my math; that doesn’t quite look right.
Comment by caleb — April 2, 2008 @ 3:40 pm
I don’t mind the swiping so much. What bothers me is that he seems to swipe from the same things over and over and over.
Comment by colin — April 2, 2008 @ 3:41 pm
The obvious point you are missing is that his art looks great (apart from the occasional bad face, although it is nowhere near as bad as people like to think), i dont like all the swiping but it is hard to pass up on great art and great writing because of a minor moral issue. Also consider that the vast majority of people who buy his work have no idea about that he doesnt do it all himself
Comment by Zeitgeist — April 2, 2008 @ 4:59 pm
If the only rule here is that “popular = good,” THEN WHY DID MARVEL EVEN BOTHER TO DRAW UP A LETTER BANNING SWIPING IN THE FIRST PLACE???
Comment by Kirk Boxleitner, a.k.a. K-Box — April 2, 2008 @ 5:15 pm
By the way, HERE’S THE LETTER.
Comment by Kirk Boxleitner, a.k.a. K-Box — April 2, 2008 @ 5:17 pm
Yeah, apart from the occasional bad face, bad pose, bad proportions, recycled artwork, and completely innapropriate facial expressions, Land’s art looks fucking awesome.
OH WAIT
Comment by Dave — April 2, 2008 @ 5:47 pm
wow now that’s just sad.
Comment by Rob Webb — April 2, 2008 @ 6:19 pm
Popular = Good = Britney Spears?
Comment by TiTo na Rua — April 2, 2008 @ 6:20 pm
Don’t forget the inability to have characters look consistent from panel to panel!
Comment by Evan Waters — April 2, 2008 @ 6:23 pm
When did “stealing Travis Charest” drawings become “using scrap”…?
Comment by Abhay — April 2, 2008 @ 6:50 pm
So basically if Marvel could just run a bunch of photographs through Photoshop filters and present it as a comic it would be fine as long as it sells?
Sorry, but I’m in the camp where I’d rather see an artist’s actual “imperfect” art than see a lot of glorified fumetti and swipes.
Comment by Fanboy Menace — April 2, 2008 @ 10:44 pm
And why does Marvel always boil the opposition to its more controversial policies to a ‘few internet loudmouths’?
Why not just say it? The internet is just a promotional tool to them and they could really care less about what you think.
Comment by Fanboy Menace — April 2, 2008 @ 10:48 pm
I guess he’s made it clear that Marvel has no obligation to even acknowledge the ethics in this situation. He’s basically covering his eyes and saying, “Sales are great! I see no problem.”
Over and over again Marvel acts as if it’s really run by 12 year olds.
Comment by Dawn — April 3, 2008 @ 5:39 am
“If it looks good, then it IS good.”
And if it looks like crap, what is it then?
Comment by Bendrix — April 3, 2008 @ 6:00 am
“Yeah, apart from the occasional bad face, bad pose, bad proportions, recycled artwork, and completely innapropriate facial expressions, Land’s art looks fucking awesome.”
If it wasnt for people on the internet activly searching for swipies and pointing them out would you even notice? Bad poses and stupid faces can be found with every artist. Again i dont agree with his work ethics and would rather he do everything himself
Comment by Zeitgeist — April 3, 2008 @ 6:16 am
“And why does Marvel always boil the opposition to its more controversial policies to a ‘few internet loudmouths’?
Why not just say it? The internet is just a promotional tool to them and they could really care less about what you think. ”
How many people on various comics forums could you find that dont like Greg Lands art? 50? 100? 500? How many actual copies is one his comics going to sell? atleast 50.000. I wish people would stop taking it so personal when comics professionals tell the truth, only a small majority of people go on to the net and voice their opinions, that doesnt mean they are ignored but you cant base your business on their opinions
Comment by Zeitgeist — April 3, 2008 @ 6:20 am
Moan all you want but as long as people keep buying Land’s books, he’s going to keep getting work.
Comment by GQ — April 3, 2008 @ 6:51 am
I would notice.
Comment by Joel — April 3, 2008 @ 9:59 am
And with this blog post, Brevoort destroys every single shred of credibility he may have had. He’s nothing more than a paid shill.
One more reason why Marvel is creatively bankrupt now. Things were never this bad even in the Speculator Era!
Comment by greeneclipse — April 3, 2008 @ 6:14 pm
David Uzumeri has an excellent point. Land is placed on books that would probably sell very well regardless of the artist. He did a Phoenix mini-series that “ressurected” Jean Grey (seriously, you think THAT wouldn’t sell??), Mark Millar’s run on UFF, Jeph Loeb’s Ultimate Power (Loeb *is* a very popular writer these days), and now is going to the flagship X-Title, written by two of Marvel’s current superstar writers. If he were placed on books who depended EXCLUSIVELY on his art to sell, I bet we’d be hearing a different tune from Marvel.
Also, even without the internet the swiping would be very noticeable, as it’s very easy to pinpoint the same poses, facial expressions and combinations of the two everywhere on any given book that’s been drawn by him, over and over again.
I really liked his art on Birds of Prey, because it had so much more personality to it, before he started depending so heavily on tracing por magazines.
Comment by James — April 4, 2008 @ 12:24 pm
But James, isn’t the fact that he keeps getting such big projects a sign that Marvel considers him an MVP? hey wou;dn’t be giving him such cushy jobs if they felt he wasn’t an asset to the company.
Which, of course, speaks to how bankrupt these people really are.
Comment by greeneclipse — April 4, 2008 @ 7:53 pm
Brevoort said:
“There’s more to what a guy like Greg Land brings to his page than his scrap,…”
_____
I think he meant ‘crap’, not scrap.
Comment by Alan Coil — April 4, 2008 @ 10:52 pm