Kevin Huxford wonders who knew what, and when, when it comes to Spider-Man’s unmasking:
It had been Marvel’s public position that Spider-Man was being unmasked to stay unmasked for a very long time. Joe Quesada was adamant about that in his New Joe Fridays interviews. But they were already planning the Spidey relaunch at the end of Civil War? So…they already knew they’d have a magic fix ready for it, when Joe said there was no magic fix ready for it. Mind you…they may not have been sure they were going to do it, but they knew were ready to do away with this aspect that had so much potential for great stories, according to editorial.
THEY.
LIE.
FREQUENTLY.
I’ve been wondering about this myself – Do you think that “One More Day” was the great story potential they talked about when they unmasked Spider-Man…?
January 31st, 2008 at 10:56 am
I think, and you’ll excuse me for this, but Joe Quesada SUCKS. I am treating Peter & MJ’s deal with the Devil as the official end of The Amazing Spider-Man and am pretty much getting out of comics over this.
Quesada has no respect for fans like myself. Every time I see a photo spread of his apartment I think “that’s where my money goes and he has zero respect for me.”
Marvel has had plenty of great ideas lately (Civil War, World War Hulk, Skrull Invasion) but they just rush into them and they’re all poorly executed. Brand New Day is no different and I am sick of being taken for granted.
Joe Quesada has ruined comics for me and I am taking my money elsewhere.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:03 am
Exactly the same thing that the guy above me said.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:30 am
It’s been awhile, but IIRC a lot of Joe’s comments about the unmasking basically took the “pro marriage” arguments and threw them back at the readers. Also, I remember him saying how they didn’t do anything without knowing “How it was going to play out over the next few years.” Neither particularly said “oh, we’re sticking with this for awhile” with the benefit of hindsight.
One interesting aspect is that from what I understand, OMD was supposed to follow directly from Civil War. It came out when it did mainly because Joe Q needed a lot more time to draw the thing. Wonder how things would have turned out had Joe been faster. Undoing the aspect of Civil War that got the most public attention two months after the story was over? Hmmm…
January 31st, 2008 at 11:36 am
There are a lot of really good comics out there that Joe Quesada had nothing to do with. Don’t throw out the baby with the bathwater.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:32 pm
I don’t know about other comic shops around the country but the one I go to said that after OMD the sales of his Spidey books all dropped by 50% and he’s afraid the slide will continue.
January 31st, 2008 at 12:56 pm
Yes. People who write fiction lie when promoting it.
See Russell T Davies and his insistence on never bringing back the Master.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:42 pm
I decided to look through Newsarama’s archives.
As for when things were known, JoeQ was talking about working on his story with JMS in the middle of Civil War.
http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/JoeMonday_2.html
JoeQ: “Well, let me put it this way, everything that’s happening right now with Spider-Man affects my Spidey story with JMS. I think I can say that this story I’m working on will be a pivotal moment in Spidey’s history.”
In fact, the earliest mention I saw of his story with JMS (Which turned out to be OMD) was in the NJF that came out right after the unmasking.
But we already knew that. Everyone from Marvel has been saying for awhile now that they’ve had this plan for a couple of years.
When people say that JoeQ said the fix wouldn’t be magic, they might be remembering this:
http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays11.html
“slexicDys” asks: “I recently read a quote by you, “Doctor Strange offers to make the world forget that Spider-Man is Peter Parker (the same way the world forgot about the Sentry in the Sentry mini series.) Peter agrees, and finds himself in a changed world.” Is this being considered as a serious decision, or something like it, that Marvel might go with?”
Joe, Newsarama here – “Is that an accurate quote, and if so, can you explain the context you posted/said it, and is that a possible plot point for the future?”
JQ- “No, that is not an actual quote; I honestly don’t know where that’s from. Sorry, Slexic, can’t help you out with that one. Sounds like a fun story though. ”
As you can see, he didn’t say it wouldn’t be magic at this point, he just denied the quote. Since the quote is partly accurate but not completely, it’s could have been something he said, something someone else said, a misremembering of House of M, or something nobody said.
I found a mention of not resetting things, but that was in regards to Civil War, not Spidey specifically:
http://www.newsarama.com/NewJoeFridays/NewJoeFridays03.html
NRAMA: “Fair enough. On the more editorial side of the Civil War front Joe, there seems to be a worry that the last page of Civil War #7 will be someone�s finger on either a literal or metaphorical �reset� button, that the world will forget about Spider-Man and Peter Parker, that Cap and Tony will be buddies again, and the Marvel Universe will have that fresh-from-the package smell. Thoughts?”
JQ: “While someone will have a finger on something, it won�t be a reset button. Could you think of a bigger cheat than to take fans for a ride for seven issues and then suddenly having Wanda or someone like that come around and say that Civil War never happened? Wow, that would suck.”
Almost immediately afterwards in that same New Joe Friday he address how long Spidey will be in the mask:
JQ: “I can also tell you that come 2007, Spidey will still be public and unmasked.”
2007. No lie there.
And the NJF after that took me all the way back to the unmasking. So that was the only promise I could find from JoeQ about the unmasking, that it would last until the beginning of 2007. Not “a very long time” and not “the next few years.” He said Spidey would still be unmasked at the beginning of 2007.
January 31st, 2008 at 1:46 pm
Leaving comics alltogether over a spider-man story? I would hate to be the EIC that had to cater to fickle fans like that
January 31st, 2008 at 1:53 pm
Quesada and Marvel say so much that has so little meaning that I tuned them out a long time ago. For them, it’s all about the hype, and the hype is mostly mis-directing lies so that the fanboys can’t guess what ignorant move Marvel is going to make next. Yet, it is all too often all too obvious. Bucky is the next Cap? Really? Big surprise there. Civil War didn’t have an end? It just petered out and continued on in many follow up books? Really? Big surprise there. Hulk didn’t really kill that kid during the Bruce Jones stories? Really? Big surprise there.
Joe Quesada likes to hear himself talk. Really? Big surprise there. Tom Brevoort likes to write about how great Marvel is and how all their decisions are the best ever made. Really? Big surprise there.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:16 pm
I don’t remember any of the exact quotes I read, but I — like a lot of other folks — sure came away with the impression that Joephisto was claiming that Spidey would stay unmasked in the long term.
I took that to mean at least a year, maybe two years, maybe more. One can aruge that the snail’s pace at which the storyline in ASM was moving it really wasn’t very long at all. How many months did it take to deal with May’s shooting? More than I care to remember.
At any rate, the quote provided above says that CW wouldn’t be undone magically. OK, that pertains to the CW itself. BUT… Spidey’s unmasking is a direct result of the CW. So that should count. Joephisto would undoutbtedly claim otherwise, but let’s face it. The unmasking was THE biggest news of the CW, an event that crossed over into the mainstream press.
It was the first time I’d heard about CW, coming at a time that I was just getting back into comics again. I was never the biggest Spidey fan, but I did read ASM as a kid. The unmasking seemed like a radical shakeup, and I was really interested to see what would come of it. I didn’t how they’d resolve the whole thing, but it seemed to me that such a bold idea could’ve provided years worth of satisfying stories.
Now I just feel lied to, whether Jopehisto truly, technically lied or not. I have no doubt that OMD was the planned “out” all along. New readers, Joey? You had a bunch, including me (I was always more a DC guy). Now you’ve lost me. And I’m sure I’m not alone.
I’m sticking with Captain America, cuz Bru’s so damned good and Iron Man (a really underrated book right now). I’d been reading New Avengers, but I want to know how the hell they’re gonna deal with black-suited Spidey over in that book (I’d like to know WHEN it all takes place too). I’m on the fence with that book, leaning towards dropping it. Anything else Spidey, anything else Marvel, I’m done.
Good luck attracting all those kids, Joey! Hope that’s worth all the readers you’ve turned off, both new and old.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:27 pm
Jason: OMD was supposed to be completed months before the end of 2007. Please don’t try to turn Joe’s inability to hit a deadline as a clever way to keep the statement honest. Still…his public identity was wiped in 2007.
Rich: Producing fiction is no excuse for lying to your customer base. That is a ridiculous assertion. There is a difference between being coy about it and lying. There is a difference between changing your mind and lying. They were already planning to fix his identity issues before they revealed his identity. Then they lied about it…and poorly planned for how they’d deal with all the changes it makes.
January 31st, 2008 at 2:58 pm
The point is, everyone wants to know how a story is going to end. And everyone is better off not knowing until they’ve actually got to the end of it. This is why white lies about fiction are sometimes necessary.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Kevin, deadline delay or not, Spidey was still unmasked far longer into 2007 than the amount of time time the OMD was delayed.
He didn’t lie. He never said the unmasking would last for years. If you want to say that he’s lying, despite the fact that he never said those things, then how can you question someone else’s honesty?
You disliked OMD? That’s fine. But hold him responsible for the things he actually did.
January 31st, 2008 at 3:48 pm
He told the LA Times straight out that they wouldn’t use a ‘forget-me ray’ or an ‘it was all a dream’ Bobby Ewing clause.
Well, Mephisto making people forget counts as a forget-me ray, it seems to me, and Harry’s return is vaguely reminiscent of somebody showing up in a shower, come to think of it….
January 31st, 2008 at 3:55 pm
Scott, do you have a link to that article?
January 31st, 2008 at 4:07 pm
I’ll give you the link to where Blog@ quoted the LA Times piece:
http://blog.newsarama.com/2008/01/03/if-a-spider-man-unmasks-in-the-forest/
Give me an L
Give me an I
Give me an E
What does that spell?
M – A – R – V – E – L
January 31st, 2008 at 4:58 pm
Sorry, not good enough.
We’ve already seen one case where someone asked about Civil War in general, then someone took his answer as being specific to Spider-Man. Before we call the man a liar I’d like to see the exact question he was asked and his exact response.
Someone else’s summary of an article that isn’t around anymore isn’t good enough to call a man a liar.
Kevin, I don’t think the retcon was a good idea either. I don’t the the it-happened-but-nobody-remembers tactic was a good idea. But I also don’t think it helps the debate to try and claim that Quesada is murdering WGA writers and raping puppies. He’s not a villain. Trying to say that he not only made a decision we disagreed with, but also did immoral things that didn’t really happen does not help the conversation.
Kivin, your claim was that, “Joe Quesada was adamant about that in his New Joe Fridays interviews.” That never happened. I checked for you, it never happend in the NJF interviews. If you can’t admit that, then you can’t claim that you’re being reasonable.
January 31st, 2008 at 4:59 pm
Damn it, I try to proofread, but sometimes the brain just doesn’t work. I’m sorry for calling you Kivin, I meant Kevin.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:31 pm
Is having a disagreement over the interpretation of his 2007 comment mean I’m unreasonable, Jason? You’re entitled to disagree with me, but it doesn’t make me unreasonable.
One More Day was planned to happen much earlier, as evidenced by JMS’s statements. As far as he knew, there wasn’t originally a plan to milk some BACK IN BLACK scheme that would see Aunt May in a hospital bed for months and months. Then it was further delayed by Quesada’s inability to meet deadlines that he sets for himself.
If it went to the original schedule, Peter would have been unmasked for about half a year. Joe and Tom made claims about how they had many stories to mine from him being unmasked. Half a year doesn’t jive with that.
Disagree with my conclusions, but I’m being reasonable.
January 31st, 2008 at 5:51 pm
I’m sorry, but any time I see the word “Joephisto” my eyes glaze over and I become incapable of taking anything being said seriously.
Guys, it was cute like, once, but at this point it’s getting pretty sad.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I think at this point…this discussion is kicking a dead horse.
A decision was made–and now ASM has regressed 30 years. You either like it or you don’t.
It’s not about LYING, folks. Plans changed; and sometimes, it’s easier to seek forgiveness than it is to seek permission. Marvel and Spiderman will survive this and some of us will come back to the book, some of us will leave, and some of us will weather this awful execution of storytelling.
I have a 30 year run of ASM–so I’m just going to hope for the best. Am I happy? Not one bit…but enough sales have slacked off at my LCS that I don’t have to drop the book–our store lost more than 30 subscribers for ASM; that’s more than 50% for us.
You’re mad or you’re not–you’re buying ASM or you’re not.
The only way things are going to change is by not buying the book–the more people buy the book–the more Joe’s choice becomes validated.
Finger pointing, name calling, and whistle blowing won’t get you anywhere. Get over it already.
January 31st, 2008 at 7:55 pm
Ekstrom: Actually, it is about lying. Brevoort said, in an article here at the ‘Rama, that they were already planning Brand New Day (which includes putting the identity genie back in the bottle) at the time that they had Spidey unmasking.
Lies, Damned Lies, and Marvel.
This isn’t about OMD…this is about them having lied about the unmasking from the start.
Funny that, because enough other people dropped reading the book, you feel that means you can buy it and still feel like a stand is being taken for how you feel about it, though. Don’t really see how that works.
Shouldn’t you be calling Mike to get another article up instead commenting on a blog you apparently didn’t bother reading?
January 31st, 2008 at 8:06 pm
No I read your blog–and I yawned. (smirk)
I got behind your whole expose on the evil Wizard and their tasteless capitalization of something unfortunate…but this is just ranting at this point and conspiracy theory–no offense.
I’m fairly certain this doesn’t boil down to a bunch of people wringing their hands in an evil fashion because they’re out to get your 3 dollars, and they are willing to lie to get it, Huxford.
Like I said–it’s more than likely an editorial change mid-stream…we’re both in agreement that it’s bad–but I happen to be a “complete-ist” when it comes to certain things…and I just happen to have every copy of ASM since the month of my birth so I’m going to keep buying it…I bought the Clone Saga…and I still occasionally eyeball them when I run out of toilet paper…
It also could indicate that this story was rushed and/or poorly executed and not really thought out in terms of ramifications.
At this point, because all we can do is quote past articles…we’re still just speculating.
Like I said…it’s a waste of time.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:21 pm
So…Tom Brevoort said they were working out everything for OMD and BND when they were still having Civil War meetings…but the conclusion can’t be drawn that they knew at that time that they intended on reseting the identity from the start?
Especially given the fact that Joe said the following to the Los Angeles Times:
“‘It can be very intimidating if you don’t know where the story is going or how it ends; we do, so we’re just excited about where it takes us and the story possibilities it offers,’ Joe Quesada, Marvel’s editor-in-chief, said Wednesday.He also promised that Marvel won’t be backing-off of Spidey’s big revelation by zapping the public with a forget-me ray or saying the press conference was a dream or a hoax.
‘We won’t be pulling a Bobby Ewing with this.’”
They knew where the story was going and how it ended. So they always planned on erasing it in such a way. As the fallout between Quesada and JMS reveals, they were so set on that way that they couldn’t use JMS’s way because BND was already in production based on Quesada’s chosen way.
January 31st, 2008 at 9:44 pm
This guy has failed to provide a quote that Spidey would remain unmasked.
If Joe is a liar, who is this guy?
Quesada is a promoter of comics. He’s PT effing Barnum. Get over yourselves, kids. He’s selling books and telling (mostly) good stories.
January 31st, 2008 at 11:28 pm
Kevin, I think this is one of those things where you’ll probably do yourself a favor by walking away…and maybe down the road you and Spiderman can meet up again if things get righted.
To me, the obvious out to all of this–is that Peter Parker is a Skrull.
What’s going to make this really rich…is that Peter Parker escapes the Skrulls and says, “WTF?!? Where’s my wife?!?” and reality is nothing like he knew it…so in essence he’s trapped in a bizarre reality that he can’t fix which makes things even harder than they were before…and now, no one remembers that’s he’s Spiderman even.
Life would suck…at least that’s how this guy would write the story.
Just a thought.
Eks
February 1st, 2008 at 12:56 am
Peter,
It would be good of you to stick to what I actually said they lied about. Joe consistently said that they had a lot of rich stories to be told with an unmasked Spider-Man and that it wouldn’t be quickly undone. He said they had no plan for a quick reset of it…no magical fix like the Pat Duffy moment in Dallas.
But that is exactly what they were already planning. They planned a distinctly limited run of him unmasked and planned a magic fix. He can still be a huckster by making vague statements that don’t turn out to be lies. He has managed that in a lot of spots for this and for many other issues. But he lied on this particular point. They’ve done it before, like with the Civil War delay that was announced by the book not being on the list sent to comic shops on Saturdays.
And Eks? How would I be doing myself a favor by walking away? Burning bridges? I have no intention of trying to buddy up to a writer and get something published over at Marvel, so I’ve got nothing to lose by pointing out the facts.
February 1st, 2008 at 1:26 am
I’ve read ASM for over 28 years and, like I said in the first comment, I’m out (my wife is so pleased, but she doesn’t understand)
The series ended when Peter & MJ made a deal with the devil.
Quesada doesn’t respect me as a reader so I don’t need to support his business.
If you’re happy with Spider-Man & Brand New Day, keep reading, but if you’re not? STOP and send Quesada a note about it.
February 1st, 2008 at 9:46 am
>>Leaving comics alltogether over a spider-man story? I would hate to be the EIC that had to cater to fickle fans like that.
I got out of comics because of Civil War. Things like CW and a Spider-man magic ret-cons are normally just the finally straw. I dont think it means fans are fickle. It just means after years of reading comics, you have finally realized that they are no longer meant for you. Nothing wrong with that.
Strangely, giving up comics was easier than giving up comic books blogs…
February 7th, 2008 at 3:51 pm
OK, i have not read the stories yet becasue i always get the collected editions, BUT from what i have already read and herd about ASM and spideys marriage has just knocked the wind from my sails.
Joe Q and his coherts have destroyed a marraige whether fictinal or not. Whats next reed and sue richards divorce.
What does Stan Lee think about this. Maybe Joe Q does not care whether readers quit buying spider-man, but I hope that this is just part of the skrullstoryline and will be fixed soon……….
from a very disillusioned reader
February 7th, 2008 at 8:19 pm
Ekstrom loses so much credibility by, after stating that he a 30 year run of comics about the character, not knowing that there is a hyphen and two capital letters in Spider-Man.