As with many of these posts, this one stems from a time I went to the comic bookstore and saw something that annoyed me. This particular time I wasn’t even looking for comic books. Instead I’d been scouring used bookstores for the sequel to a trashy novel (that I hadn’t known was so trashy when the first book was loaned to me, but now I was hooked). I hadn’t even intended to look at the rack, except the clerk who helped me navigate the unfamiliar paranormal romance territory turned out to be the biggest Teen Titans fan I had ever met. She steered me into the comic book section to point something out when my eyes fell upon the reason I just can’t get back into Marvel comics.
I didn’t know Wolfman-era Titans, so I held it up to change the subject.
“I love this character, but it took a lot of people a long time to get me to read this book.”
“Why?”
“The cover artist. He doesn’t even do good cheesecake. See, this one isn’t so bad because its a take on the famous painting–” At this point I realized that the particular cover was worse that I thought. “Wait, why is the dress so formfitting? Her shoulders are back and her back is arched. But the wolfman is posed exactly like the man in the painting. He felt a need to sexy up She-Hulk for an homage cover? Its supposed to be funny, not cheesecakey.”
“Well, a lot of the She-Hulk covers are cheesecakey–”
“I know, and the Elektra covers, and the old Emma Frost covers and the Ms. Marvel covers. Have you ever read Ms. Marvel? It is an awesome book. I picked up the first two trades. It is exactly what I love in a superhero book. Female hero with aviation interest and military background! A premise where the hero decides that she is going to make the most of her life! Humor! Alternate universes and timelines! An entire issue spent inside a science fiction novel! But whenever I see it in the store I can’t bring myself to pick up an issue. I wait for the trade because I don’t want to look at this guy’s covers.”
“It sounds like a good book, though.”
“They put this guy on every female book at Marvel, why do they do that? I mean, look at this. Its like a giant flashing sign that says ‘Men’s Wank Material!’. They could put them in a fertility clinic as collection aids. The writers on Ms. Marvel and She-Hulk handle female characters wonderfully, and that is so damned rare anymore but there’s nothing on the cover to entice a woman to pick up the book! And even for attracting a buyer who wants to read about the sexy green giantess, the cover artist isn’t even close to interior art style or the mood of the book!”
“Well, posters are big these days.”
“Why does a poster have to be of a cover of a book? They could just do hardcover pinup collections and sell them for $50 and then make posters of the pinups, and court the proper audience for the book.”
“Its a way to keep artists under contract when they don’t have a regular book.”
“Why would they want to keep this guy under contract? All of his women look alike. They’re all posed in generic centerfold poses to the point he can’t even do a simple American Gothic homage without sexing it up! It looks like he’s photoshopping the costumes and coloring to make as many different Marvel women as he can from a lingerie model’s portfolio.”
“Actually, I think he just uses his girlfriend as a model.”
“Okay, accusing him of photoshopping is a bit far on my part. But his art is a cross between my least favorite trends: photorealistic art and sexual pandering. Static women with seductive poses and expressions. The most expressive stuff is when he directly references something well-known like a movie poster or a painting. I’ve never seen anything to indicate he can tell a story with his pictures.”
She laughed at the thought of comic book companies hiring actual storytellers over pinup artists, and steered the conversation to Jim Lee’s considerably less offensive art as an example of someone who can tell a story and draw decent cheesecake.
Later, when I was googling the original painting (I discovered that where the farmer’s wife is looking at her husband She-Hulk is gazing seductively at the potential buyer) I realized I hadn’t actually asked her opinion on Greg Horn’s art. She may have liked him, but not enough to get into an argument with me.
Come to think of it, that may be why I’ve never met any Greg Horn fans in person.
September 28th, 2007 at 9:10 am
I think you helped me realize why I haven’t checked out Brian Reed’s Ms. Marvel.
September 28th, 2007 at 9:57 am
I think Greg Horn’s art is horrible. It looks so computer-generated, the colors are garish and do not exist anywhere in nature, and there is absolutely no life whatsoever to his characters. There are cheescake artists out there (Frank Cho, Adam Hughes, Terry Dodson, etc.) who are actually good artists. Greg Horn is a hack and a snake-oil salesman.
September 28th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Oh, and I think it’s so ironic that the three women in that cover for Ms. Marvel 22 are all completely interchangable. It’d be nice if that was Horn making a mocking commentary on himself, but I doubt it.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:09 am
The couple in the original painting are father and daughter, BTW, not husband and wife.
September 28th, 2007 at 10:10 am
For the record, the women on that Ms. Marvel ARE completely interchangeable in that they’re all Carol. It’s Carol in her original suit, Carol in her current suit, and Carol as Binary.
September 28th, 2007 at 11:28 am
…Jim Lee’s considerably less offensive art as an example of someone who can tell a story and draw decent cheesecake.
She makes an excellent argument, but this statement doesn’t help her credibility…
September 28th, 2007 at 11:29 am
Very nice essay. It took me forever to check out She-Hulk because of his covers, and I still haven’t made the leap onto Ms. Marvel for the same reason. I’ll add one other effect that his covers have on me - comics with his covers are among the only comics that I get really uncomfortable reading in public. I do a lot of my comic reading on the bus or on lunch breaks at work and the only time that I ever get at all self conscious about what I’m reading and what people around me think about what I’m reading are the occasions when I’m reading books with covers by him.
Actually one more thing - knowing how uncomfortable his covers make *me*, I tend to be reluctant to just hand someone a book with a cover by him when I’m loaning them a stack of paperbacks or comics to read because I know that few if any of my friends will crack open a book with that style of cover.
His covers make me uncomfortable buying the books they are on.
His covers make me uncomfortable reading the books they are on.
His covers make me uncomfortable recommending the books they are on.
I really wonder if there is anyone that his covers sell to and, if such a person exists, if they are the kind of person who would at all enjoy the content of the books he tends to do covers for. (I have a really difficult time imagining someone picking up, say, one of the Black Widow books because of one of his covers and then being thrilled by the Richard K. Morgan/Bill Sienkiewicz content inside…)
It appears that he’s going to be doing the covers for Jenna Jameson’s new series. I hope that really takes off for him. That seems like a fitting use for what he does and I won’t have to deal with his work tainting things I like ever again.
September 28th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Three points:
(1) It seems that the clerk is offended by Marvel’s cheesecake covers yet has a great familiarity with paranormal romance books. I personally find the latter much more offensive.
(2) Superhero comics have a male dominated audience. Sex sells and men are largely visually stimulated creatures. No need to get bent out of shape over it.
(3) I feel safe in disregarding all of the opinion’s represented here based on the evaluation of the current Ms. Marvel series as an “awesome” comic. Ms. Marvel is much more easily described as mediocre and acceptable, but below average.
(4) Greg Horn’s neither entice me to buy a comic nor do they drive me away. If you are offended by them just rip it off, you still have a perfectly readable comic book then.
September 28th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
What’s that they say about not judging a book by its cover? Very good points, however I’m baffled by “its a good comic with a horrible cover therefore I don’t buy it.” Good is good despite the package its being sold in. But regardless, Greg Horn suuuuuuuucks.
September 28th, 2007 at 2:51 pm
Greg Horn is no longer doing the covers for She-Hulk. I think the more important point is that, for a while, he was doing both of the covers for Marvel Super-Heroine books. I don’t care for his work either, but he certainly shouldn’t be ‘covering’ a whole genre.
That She-Hulk cover where she was getting hit by the SHIELD flying car shows Greg Horn has got some serious skills. Lets see more work like that.
September 28th, 2007 at 3:05 pm
I am truly shocked that you don’t like Greg Land covers. Truly.
September 28th, 2007 at 5:08 pm
I can’t understand why someone is perplexed by a consumer not buying a book with a cover they find to be sexist. Yes…the interior might have a great story, but buying the book pretty much tells the company you enjoy the whole package. All they see is that it sold. Seeing as how so many publishers specifically use covers and cover artists because they think it will increase sales, boycotting the book is better than continuing to buy it if you dislike the cheesecake.
September 28th, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Um, She-Hulk’s expression in that American Gothic style cover doesn’t strike me as being a ’seductive’ look at the potential buyer. It’s a fairly neutral look, especially compared to the cowgirl picture.
September 29th, 2007 at 9:19 am
Greg Horn is another “kewl” fan turned comic pro that’s ruining comics for those of us that just want a good funnybook to read. It all looks like photo swipes to me but the fanboys drool all over it and proclaim hacks lke Horn greater than the guys in the trenches who really care about comics, guys like John Byrne, who Marvel wouldn’t hire in a million years.
As Bono would say, “Cover me with crap, I’m done!”
Feh.
September 30th, 2007 at 10:44 am
I read and enjoy both She-Hulk and Ms. Marvel and I’m a fan of “cheesecake” art but I will say that I’ve only liked a small percentage of Horn’s covers.
I just don’t really like his art very much.
September 30th, 2007 at 2:07 pm
I’m convinced that Dan Slott’s great she-hulk run would have sold a lot better without the Greg Horn covers.
People who buy comics for the porn/swimsuit traced type-art aren’t going to enjoy the actual content of the book, and people who want to buy the book probably don’t enjoy those covers.
Everybody loses!
October 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm
(2) Superhero comics have a male dominated audience. Sex sells and men are largely visually stimulated creatures. No need to get bent out of shape over it.
Yeah, sweetheart, why be such a sourpuss? It’ll give you wrinkles. Now, why don’t you leave the superhero comics to the boys and go do some shopping to cheer yourself up?
Jeezus.
October 1st, 2007 at 2:32 pm
In response to Del Gorky:
1. That’s four points, not three.
2. You might find trashy romance novels offensive, but then again we’re not talking about the writing here, we’re talking about images.
3. Tell me, how does “Sex sells” make it any less sexist or offensive?
4. So you disregard the poster’s entire argument simply because you disagree about what they enjoy? I have found the book Preacher to be offensive, gory, horrific, and totally outside my tastes, but I understand why people like it and I’m not going to put down those who do enjoy it.
5. She has a solution - buy them in trades, whereas you seem to be suggesting she should engage in illegal activities, which would still get her the cover that she doesn’t want to look at, anyway.
October 6th, 2007 at 5:49 pm
“Instead I’d been scouring used bookstores for the sequel to a trashy novel (that I hadn’t known was so trashy when the first book was loaned to me, but now I was hooked).”
Ok, now I’m dying to know what series that was. Feel free to email it to me if you don’t want to admit it in public. I’ll keep your secret.
“(1) It seems that the clerk is offended by Marvel’s cheesecake covers yet has a great familiarity with paranormal romance books. I personally find the latter much more offensive.
(2) Superhero comics have a male dominated audience. Sex sells and men are largely visually stimulated creatures. No need to get bent out of shape over it.”
The cognative dissonance some people display just astounds me at times.
Even ignoring that 1) he’s confusing the clerk and the author of the article, 2) Lisa made it clear that her biggest problem was not with the covers existence, but with the fact that they are so ubiquitous and that they in no way relate to what’s inside, 3) he (of course) conflates “sex” to mean “heteronormative sex that appeals to men”…..
…people who can manage to write “so what that A doesn’t make you want to buy something, I don’t like B!” and then in the next sentence write “A sells! Get over it! as if the two aren’t fundamentally contradictory…
Yeah, just, whatever.
October 18th, 2007 at 11:11 am
This post is stupid, mean, and spiteful. These people get on Newsarama just to state how bad they think Greg Horn’s art is when the truth is so plainly the oppposite? You guys are all just haters. Take a look at Greg Horn’s client list (pasted from his website at http://www.greghornjudge.com) over the past 6 years and PLEASE explain to me why all these art directors and brand managers are WRONG and you are RIGHT? These art directors are trying to preserve their livelihoods by hiring the best possible talent! Meanwhile, you guys are giving your hateful opinions for free. I think you guys are feeble little worms, AND you are jealous jealous haters. Quit hatin’!!!
D_Nife187
GREG HORN’S CLIENT LIST:
Marvel Comics
Allstate Insurance Company (LEO BURNETT)
Nike (WIEDEN & KENNEDY)
MAD magazine
Powerade (WB)
ESPN Gamezone (WB)
2K GAMES
Electronic Arts- EA SPORTS
Random House Publishing
Universal Studios/ Vivendi Games
Top Cow Productions
Virgin Comics
Wizard Entertainment magazine
Official XBOX magazine
Bacardi.com
HIP Interactive
3D Realms
Warner Bros.
Mattel (WB)
Jumbo Games (Big Ideas)
Penguin books (The Berkley Publishing Group)
Carlsberg Lager (Saatchi & Saatchi)
GM General Motors (McLaren McCann)
Integrated Beverage Group
Ringling Bros. and Barnum & Bailey Circus
Image Comics
Pontiac (Marvel Comics)
Blizzard entertainment
Sony Online Entertainment
Digital Extremes
Dynamic Forces
Clampett Studios (WB)
Wizards of the Coast
Inquest Gamer magazine
ToyFare magazine
Bicycle playing Cards
100% Playstation magazine
PSE Playstation Entertainment
PCGamer magazine
Devil’s Due publishing
Fantasy Imperium (Shadowstar Games)
Harris Comics
Malibu Comics
Fleer Corporation -Overpower card set
Diamond Select
Platinum Studios
GREG HORN’S ART WORK SELLS COMIC BOOKS AND MERCHANDISE ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHILE YOU SPEW PURE HATRED ON A KEYBOARD. How’s that working out for ya?
October 18th, 2007 at 5:36 pm
GREG HORN’S ART WORK SELLS COMIC BOOKS AND MERCHANDISE ALL OVER THE WORLD, WHILE YOU SPEW PURE HATRED ON A KEYBOARD. How’s that working out for ya?
Quite well, actually. How’s it working out for you?
–
Sorry, couldn’t resist that one. I do find it interesting that you put such passion and energy into calling me hateful merely because I know what I dislike, I know why I dislike it, and I say so in a public forum suspecting I’ll find others of a similar opinion.
I disagree that just because someone is a business manager or an art director that they know what’s suitable and artistic better than I do. These companies are in the business of making money. Often in our society companies cater to the lowest common denominator to do so. In this post I suggest hiring Mr. Horn has nothing to do with artistic suitability and everything to do with assuming that the average comic buyer will pick up something with round shiny breasts on the cover.
I also point out that the interior of the books he represents would many times appeal to a different sort of person than the type who buys books for the round shiny breasts on the cover. I suggest the crossover appeal between people who would like the interior of the books and people who like round shiny breasts on the cover may not be worth losing the people who would like the interior of the books but are disgusted by round shiny breasts displayed so prominently on the cover. I strongly suspect that people who like round shiny breasts on the cover and like the interior of the books may buy the books without round shiny breasts displayed prominently on the cover, and that the people who are disgusted by round shiny breasts on the cover would buy the books as well, so that sales would not necessarily be hurt by the loss of the round shiny breasts on the cover.
A list of companies that hire Mr. Horn doesn’t address any of that.
December 22nd, 2007 at 12:48 am
Yawn. It’s pretty simple. If you don’t like it, don’t buy it and stop whining. I like the covers more than not, other times it’s like eh, whatever. I am sure more are buying because of the covers than not, but I am sure most are buying regardless of the cover. What are we suppose to do, start a letter writing campaign because you don’t like them? What are you, like the religious right that whines about television programs that imply unmarried people having sex? Get over yourself. If you don’t like something don’t buy it. If you do, buy it. Why is it in the United States people think they should enforce their opinion on others is beyond me. Here’s a f’ing newsflash for you: They’re comic books! If I want higher brow entertainment I read a book. Why don’t you try it instead of wailing on into the night that some comic book you like the story of doesn’t have the cover that you want.
Move to Europe for a year and get some damn sophistication in your thinking.
December 22nd, 2007 at 12:55 am
drakester, I like the product. The packaging is off-putting, and false advertising. As a customer I am within my rights to complain if I am misled by the packaging into buying something that I do not like, or persuaded by the packaging not to buy something I would otherwise buy.
Your patronizing attempt to twist my perfectly reasonable argument into the shrieking of a provincial uneducated prude is no more effective at shaming me into silence than commenting on an old post is at avoiding my attention.
December 22nd, 2007 at 1:41 am
So your solution is that the cover artist must be changed to match something that *you* want. That’s reasonable. First of all it’s a damn comic book, but obviously it speaks volumes of how you think.
Thank goodness we have you to speak out and say hardly anyone likes the Greg Horn covers. Ooops…maybe the editor at Marvel comics does (do you suppose your ego could handle that someone knows more about comics in general, particularly sales, than you?) OOOOOPPPS! The writer of the comic you hold in such high esteem likes him very much (see his forum at http://www.savagebreakfast.com). OOOPPPS! I and many other readers generally like Horn’s stylized realism.
Now that was patronizing.
I stumbled into your blog from googling; and am sorry to bust your bubble, but you are part of the problem of the United States. Everyone thinks everyone has to listen to *them*, because they are right, and they know at least some people that agree with them, so the majority certainly agrees with them, so things *have* to change.
Again, Get over yourself. Seriously, take a year and move to France or Italy or UK or Spain or anyplace and you will get what I mean.
December 22nd, 2007 at 2:35 am
Drakester, you’re not fooling anybody with your New Jersey-based internet service, so drop it.
Secondly, read what I wrote. The cover artist is FALSE ADVERTISING. If it were on a book that was filled with nothing but Greg Hornesque art, that would be one thing.
But its not. The interior is VASTLY different from the exterior. The company is putting off the very people who would like the inside. This is a well-known problem with the She-Hulk series, people who would not pick it up until repeatedly recommended to because they looked at the cover and concluded it was not for them.
Finally, I find the cover art substandard, and the emphasis on cheesecake over mood is essential to why I find it substandard. Once again, within my rights to complain about. People across the internet do so when they don’t like an artist. Yet they don’t get told by commenters that they present the problems of US culture. I wonder why that is.
December 23rd, 2007 at 12:56 am
Drakester - ridiculous.
Saying nothing does not provide impeteus for change.
Let’s say you were in a position to do something about these complaints. To cite an overused metaphor:
Would you put in earplugs and let the wheel wear and eventually fall off, rather than let the squeaky wheel depricate your skill as a mechanic?
I doubt you’d find any marketing directors who would say that fan feedback is unwanted…
Oh, yes. You must be one of those idiots who think that women don’t read comic books.