When Brian Azzarello emailed me and asked if we wanted to play along in a cross-internet marathon interview session he was doing with Cliff Chiang, of course I said yes. So the saga begins on what should be an interesting day of Q’s and A’s …

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Everybody loves the underdog. Or do they?

With DC’s Doctor Thirteen: Architecture & Mortality — originally serialized in the eight-issue Tales of the Unexpected mini-series — writer Brian Azzarello and artist Cliff Chiang did the unprecedented and unexpected: They took characters long forgotten (or, in some cases, never remembered) in the mire of continuity and crossovers and slammed them together to create a kinetic, witty and – most importantly – FUN series that had no expectations or limitations.

Here, for your amusement, disgust and reading pleasure is an 11-part interview between Azz and Cliff, broken and sprinkled across the comic book press, where our beloved creators talk about their multi-layered story, the anxieties that come with being, well, creative in comics and hair plugs. Yes. But most of all, learn about how two guys tagged as “gritty” and “noir” created an energetic, colorful and off-the-wall story that made a gaggle of nobody characters into nobodies with at least one good story under their belts. Take it away, gentlemen.

PART 1

BA: You and I had been trying to get together on a project for some time, and what we had been discussing were dark little period pieces. How the hell did this thing happen?

CC: It was at least 5 years ago, one of your trips to New York, and we were talking about a noir-ish, detective story. It would have been great to work on that, but in those intervening 5 years I think I’ve worked on enough “gritty” stuff that I was eager to try something else. Our editor, the inestimable Bob Schreck, asked me if I was interested in working with you on a horror anthology, and I jumped at the opportunity.

I was surprised to hear your name from Bob, as I figured you were busy enough with 100 Bullets and Loveless, among other things. How did this start for you?

BA: It started with Bob. He called me, told me he knew I was very busy, just swamped, then offered TALES OF THE UNEXPECTED. Before I could say no, he went into full-metal Schreck-mode; and I felt bad. I mean, I had no intention of working in the DCU at the time.

CC: It almost sounds like you were guilted into it.

BA: Almost?

CC: Did you have any idea what you were going to write?

BA: No, but once I was guilted into it, I knew how I was going to write it. That answer cries for some explanation, or better yet, confession; part of full metal Schreck was telling me that David Lapham was the other writer involved in this anthology. Now David is a writer who I’ve admired for a long time, and the chance to share a book with him was very appealing. So I said yes. Once Schreck got that word out of my mouth he told me that The Spectre was to be the main feature, and he had a list of unwanted DC supernatural characters that I could choose from for the back-up. Welcome aboard. I hung up, and then it was like, “Wait a minute– I’m being offered the back-up? I’m -gulp- filler?” I got depressed for a minute, and then I got pissed. “I’ll so give them filler…”

CC: It’s funny how getting pissed can really get the creative juices going. I’d been told it was a back-up when I started, too, but I said yes anyway. 16 pages is practically a whole comic, so it was almost like drawing a monthly book.

BA: Once I accepted that this was a back-up, it became strangely liberating. “No one will read this story… no one is watching…. We can do anything… We can get away with everything! Let’s take it on…” Then I looked at the list. Understand, at the time the DCU was undergoing its massive rebuilding, and the list (and it was a short one) was filled with characters that had no place in the new DCU. They weren’t just unwanted, they were deemed unusable. So I had my villains before I had my hero. I called Schreck back and asked for Doctor 13, who wasn’t on the list. Apparently, he’d been killed recently. Now, he was a character that I actually had some fondness for, and I took it as a personal affront that he’d been killed. When I got him, it hammered home that not only didn’t he matter, but the story I wanted to tell didn’t either. It was a perfect storm. Then I asked for you. I always thought you were incredibly talented, but for some reason were never considered for the high-profile gigs. I thought this could change that.

CC: That meant a lot. It’s always a tricky proposition working with friends. You might think you’re on the same wavelength, but you never know. I was really glad to see that you were open to hearing some of my suggestions, and I know all of your comments and ideas really improved my work. All of the back and forth made for a healthy collaboration, and to date, I don’t think I’ve ever worked in such an organic manner. As the work progressed, I felt pretty good about being the one who got to draw all this crazy stuff.

BA: Were you apprehensive about signing on?

CC: I knew you’d come up with something extraordinary, but part of me wondered if this was going to be another bleak story, the kind I was starting to get pigeon-holed with.

BA: You mean the kind I’m happily pigeon-holed with.

CC: I’d just come off the Spectre mini-series, which wasn’t just dark… it was pitch-black. As an artist I have to live in that world for a long time, and though it was great working with Will Pfeifer, I just wasn’t looking to do that again. But it wasn’t just that… I’d also heard from Bob that you were looking for a Bernie Wrightson kind of vibe to the art, so yeah, you could say I was apprehensive.

BA: What? I was looking for what? That’s really news to me. I guess somebody was looking for that kind of vibe…

The way I remember it, was I called you and said I had a story you were absolutely wrong for– it would be filled with elements that nobody would expect from me– or you.

CC: Yeah, I felt a hell of a lot better once we actually started talking about the story: flying pirate ships, cavemen, haunted tanks, Nazi gorillas…It was too good to be true. You really sold me on it, and the idea of tweaking people’s expectations really sealed the deal. I’m always asked to draw more real world stuff, and while I do have that in me, I still like drawing wacky stuff. Who wouldn’t want to draw an army of gorillas fighting a vampire, a ghost pirate, a tank, and a Confederate general on horseback? I imagine you had a pretty long leash coming up with the story, though I suspect that the folks at DC might’ve been expecting something less, um, quirky. What inspired you to write this story?

BA: Honestly? I felt sorry for the characters on the list. I mean, they weren’t even important enough to die.

CC: What’s the list, again? I’ve heard rumors of its existence…

BA: The list. Basically, it was characters that wouldn’t be appearing in 52. Characters that– the way I took it– weren’t even good enough for a last hurrah. That frosted my cone, but in reality there was no way they could have addressed every character in that series, even as comprehensive as it was. Most of the characters were historical ones; easy enough, they didn’t have to fit in the reconstructed time-line. But still, they shouldn’t be left to fall through the cracks. I mean, when I was a kid I loved The Haunted Tank. Sure, in the new DCU it couldn’t make sense, but don’t invalidate my memories…

CC: You know what the first issue of DC Comics I ever read was? Issue #12 of Crisis. It was a whole universe of characters in colorful costumes getting obliterated, and I think it may have scarred me — all those heroes and stories being written out of existence. I didn’t know things were being rebooted or whatnot, I just saw stuff getting trashed. As a professional, I can see how you might want to clear the decks, but there must be a way to honor all of those old comics. What was your first DC comic?

Edit: here’s part 2, which we added later in the day …

CC: What was your first DC comic?

BA: God, Our Army at War, or a Weird War Tales… maybe GI Combat, or Star Spangled War? I dunno, I had to be a book with either Sgt. Rock or the Unknown Soldier in it, I’m guessing. I’ll tell you the one that I really remember: Swamp Thing #1. My father bought me and my brothers a stack of comics the night before we went on a road trip, and it was one of them. I must have read it a hundred times between Cleveland and Boston. I thought Bernie Wrightson was the greatest, and I vowed that one day I would work with him. Instead, I got you.

CC: Hey, I’m the new Bernie Wrightson! Sweet!

BA: That guy does get the ladies, let me tell you. Maybe Cassaday’s the new Bernie Wrightson…

CC: Y’know, I definitely loved Wrightson, too. I remember thinking that issue of Swamp Thing with Batman in it was just about the coolest thing ever. Too bad none of it rubbed off!

BA: Did your heart sink when you got the first script?

CC: Even though I’d spoken with you and Bob, I really had no idea what to expect. It was clear from the first line that you were probably laughing as you were writing each page. I don’t think I’ve ever read a script with such a palpable sense of joy. All the jokes, all the nods to obscure DC continuity — who knew you were such a fan of the Silver Age?

BA: Only my hairdresser. Say, if you were going bald, would you consider a toupee or hair plugs?

CC: Depends on how much money I have. Since I’m working in comics, it’d probably end up being a rug. I’d shave it but I have no idea what my skull looks like under this lustrous head of hair. I’m happy to go gray, though. I wanna look like Reed Richards. When did you start shaving your head?

BA: I think it was about two weeks after I officially threw in the towel.

CC: Did you see the book as an opportunity to showcase a different part of your personality?

BA: Oh sure. The smart-ass side, which I keep hidden. What about you?

CC: Hidden, right. Me, I just wanted to let go and loosen up a bit. Plus, it was such a diverse cast that it wouldn’t have worked with a super serious art style. One of the best things I took away from this was to try and have more fun. I’d call you when I was trying to figure out how something wacky needed to be drawn, and you always said, “It’s comics, man.” At some point, you realize that a lot of rules are self-imposed, and if you’re going to do anything worthwhile, you’ve got to break ‘em.

BA: The only rule to live by, in my opinion. As creators, the worse thing we can do is give the audience what we think they want. How would you feel if I got breast implants?

CC: As long as they look natural, I say go for it. Are you going on the dance circuit? You might make more if you go super large, but I hear you get a better look if they leave the implant half empty.

BA: Or is it half full? Does it bother you that I walk around my house naked?

CC: No, but it does explain why you want implants. But that’s also the beauty of the freelancer lifestyle. Draw, eat, call your editors… all in the nude. Related to nakedness, what’s the most personal story you’ve written?

BA: Oh, I don’t think I’ve ever written anything without some sort of personal touchstone in it. Architecture & Mortality is littered with bits from my own life. The whole “Chucky Morgan” anecdote is based on something that happened to me. My crummy life is my biggest influence.

CC: I had no idea who most of these characters were until I started drawing the book. The choices are all over the place – an alien, a vampire, a boy genius, a pirate… How did you pick these guys and gals?

BA: They were on the list. Well, some of them were. Genius Jones was too obscure to even make it. So was The Primate Patrol– or Platoon too– who were brought to my attention by Brandon Montclare, Schreck’s assistant editor. They appeared in one issue of Weird War Tales; it was “Primate Platoon” on the cover, “Patrol” on the title page. Or vice versa, doesn’t matter. Hell, Doctor 13 & Traci weren’t on the list. You came up with Infectious Lass…

CC: Yeah, we were originally thinking of Silver Banshee–

BA: She was on the list–

CC: — But she had just shown up in Superman, so we needed someone more obscure. I’d done a sketch of Infectious Lass at a convention a few years ago, and kinda fell in love with the alien go-go boots and the mucus arms. I looked at a lot of Bob Oksner’s Angel and the Ape for inspiration. He always drew such cute girls.

But really, it wasn’t just that these guys were on the list, it’s that they were on the BOTTOM of the list. Everybody loves an underdog, right?

BA: Actually, nobody pays attention to one–or a back-up story. A fact we needed to bank on. Like I said, I worked on DC’s big characters, and the amount of scrutiny that goes in to what’s done with them can be frustrating. At least it was for me. Well, here we were, given characters that nobody wanted. What harm could we possibly do?

CC: In some people’s minds? In the end, I do think that there were a lot of readers who just appreciated seeing the characters run around again. It was fun, and the only question we ever asked ourselves was “Why not?” I think the spirit of it all was pretty pure. I know we considered having Genius Jones grow to his chronological age at the end, but something felt kinda wrong about it. It somehow spoiled the party.

BA: I couldn’t do that to him– actually I couldn’t do that to any of them. I didn’t want to screw with these characters at all. I wanted to make them relevant. I wanted to point out that every character had to have meant something, to someone.

CC: I’m a little bit surprised there wasn’t more outcry, like “That’s not Genius Jones!” Or “JEB Stuart doesn’t talk like Foghorn Leghorn!” Maybe it goes to show how low their comic book Q ratings were. Which of the characters were you the least familiar with?

BA: Infectious Lass. Christ, what a power– what a name! It got me reading some old Legion archives, and the insanity in those things… they were just supposed to be fun. I shouldn’t say just– Fun is great thing to aspire to be. And that’s what we were aspiring to, no?

To continue reading, visit our friend Heidi over at The Beat.

This entry was posted on Wednesday, September 19th, 2007 at 9:00 am and is filed under Comic Books, DC Comics, Interviews, News & Views. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can skip to the end and leave a response. Pinging is currently not allowed.