Alan Moore’s Killing Joke has become quite the topic around comic book bloggers/livejournalists lately.
Occasional Superheroine got the ball rolling when she discusses her general disinterest in the portrayal of women in comics.
But it’s not a book written for me. Not for *me.* It doesn’t take the perspective of a woman into account. It doesn’t take into account that some women might be so very disgusted with the book & what happens to Barbara Gordon in it.
Laura Hudson counters with her own perspective:
OK, listen: As a woman and as an adult, I can deal with fictional characters performing reprehensible acts towards women—or towards any human being—that turn my stomach. When they’re used not gratuitously but for a purpose, as I believe they were in The Killing Joke, that’s exactly what they’re supposed to do. That’s because the characters, their actions—they aren’t there to make me feel good. They’re there to tell me a story, to show me something, and it might be beautiful or it might be ugly but either way I get on board and I take the ride.
TonPo thinks the conflict is pointless:
Ms. Superheroine was disgusted by The Killing Joke. Not disgusted but inspired like Ms. Hudson, or myself at age 13. In my opinion, that is reason enough for someone to dislike a particular work of art, regardless of whether I share that reaction or not.
Kate Willært/Digital_Eraser is torn:
I think it’s pretty obvious that his reason at the time for asking to be able to cripple Batgirl was because he wanted to write a story that would have long-term ramifications — something fairly rare in the DC universe — as well as to shock and disgust the reader. The problem being that, nowadays, it disgusts for the wrong reasons — because it was one of the earliest instances in comics of violence against women used to get a reaction out of a male character (the whole theme of the putrid Identity Crisis), a cliche that today is called Women In Refrigerator Syndrome. I’m kind of curious what Moore’s reaction would be if asked how he felt about inspiring this tired cliche…I wouldn’t be surprised if it ended up just one more reason he dislikes the story himself.
So what do you think?
August 18th, 2007 at 9:21 am
I find it had to see what happend to Gordan in the negative. It changed her from Batman’s female sidekick to Oracle, one of the true movers and shakers of the DCU.
I wonder what Jason Todd would think?
August 18th, 2007 at 10:04 am
Wasn’t the Killing Joke originally intended as being out-of-continuity? I’m not sure Moore necessarily intended it to have long-term ramifications. Though I may be thinking of another story.
Or for that matter, he may have figured somebody else would just fix Barbara’s spine three months later, this being comics and all.
August 18th, 2007 at 10:10 am
“It changed her from Batman’s female sidekick to Oracle,”
That happened, but it didn’t happen in this story. Other writers made that happen later.
The Killing Joke is a terrific Batman Story, a terrific Joker story, and one of the best Commissioner Gordon stories ever. But it’s also a pretty terrible Barbra Gordon story. She’s incidental to her own maiming, it was an attack on the Commissioner.
She has virtually no lines in the book, her emotions and reactions are almost non-existent, and there’s nothing about her as a person in the book. For such a huge moment in her life, she’s pretty far from having a decent story here.
All of which would be fine for a non-heroic supporting character, but it is a slight for a popular heroic character. You’d expect a hero to get some focus in a story about her maiming. That’s a problem, regardless of what other stories did later.
I have mixed feelings about the book. Like I said, it is a great Batman, Joker, and Commissioner Gordon story.
August 18th, 2007 at 11:31 am
As someone who was fortunate enough to be reading comics at the time this story came out, I have to say I was extremely impressed by this work when it came out. Appalled at the level of violence and sadism, but it seemed quite powerful in it’s way. Like CodeGuy said, it was a strong Jim Gordon story.
It certainly wasn’t Moore’s finest work, but it was a good Batman story. I was pretty horrified at what happened to Barbara in the story, and it is a very male-centric story. She seems to be more a motivational device than a character. I’m sure that’s one reason Moore doesn’t like the story.
Without meaning to do so, Alan Moore does seem to have inspired an escalation of violence against female comic characters. His writing inspired a lot of undesirable results in lesser writers. They wanted to have the impact on readers that his works had on them, but they apparently just saw the increased violence and mayhem. Somehow the character bits seemed less important than the gore. And that’s the real shame.
August 18th, 2007 at 2:01 pm
I wouldn’t say Moore started the trend. Gerry Conway said that he killed Gwen Stacy because it was a standard thing to do. Even at the time there was a long tradition in storytelling of killing the girl to hurt the hero.
August 18th, 2007 at 4:46 pm
CodeGuy writes: “Even at the time there was a long tradition in storytelling of killing the girl to hurt the hero.”
There’s an obvious statistical reason for this: for better or for worse, most heroes are men, most of these male heroes are straight, therefore their loved ones will most often be female. Therefore, villains will most often target female characters.
There are exceptions – using best friends like Jimmy Olsen to get to Superman, Robin or Alfred to get to Batman, Happy to get to Iron Man, etc. But those exceptions prove the rule – given the predominant gender and sexual orientation of superheroes, the most effective target for the villain will most often be female.
Please understand what I’m saying – by NO means does this make the “women-in-refrigerators” syndrome right or OK. But I hope it does put the problem in some perspective. (One possible conclusion is, rather than focusing on women as victims, to focus on diversifying the superhero population.)
August 18th, 2007 at 5:26 pm
I see what you’re saying Mark. I’m OK with the loved ones of the main character getting hurt in a story. Even when it’s women.
The Women in Refrigerators problem comes in when the characters aren’t just supporting characters like Gwen Stacy, but heroes in their own right like Barbara Gordon. Male heroes go down fighting while female heroes go down as victims in someone else’s story, that’s the WiR thing. I only mentioned Gwen Stacy to show that female characters getting hurt didn’t start with Alan Moore.
August 18th, 2007 at 5:51 pm
Killing Joke was definitely meant to be out of continuity, as was The Dark Knight. Moore even put in a Bat Mite reference to shore that up.
August 18th, 2007 at 6:28 pm
CodeGuy: Very good point – the fact that Barbara was a hero, and not merely the daughter of a main character, definitely adds weight to the issue.
It would be interesting to look at how male vs. female superhero deaths are portrayed. Supergirl’s death in COIE was definitely treated as a hero’s death, just as Barry Allen’s was. There’s been no female hero death on the scale of Superman or Captain America, so we can’t make a comparison there. Donna Troy’s death was definitely noted and remembered, but Jade’s hardly even got mentioned. (Ironically, both former loves of Kyle Rayner.)
August 19th, 2007 at 2:39 pm
Killing Joke is the only Alan Moore comic I’ve read which I didn’t like. I found it repulsive in that it wasn’t just violent (many comics are) but it reveled in the violence and torture the way films like SAW do today. It was “torture porn” before the term existed and I’ve never been able to go back and reread it even though Brian Bolland is one of my all time favorite artists.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:04 pm
Alan Moore books I’ve read which I didn’t like:
a) Violator Vs Badrock
b) Spawn Blood Feud
c) Spawn vs WildCATS
d) Er…
e) That’s it.
August 19th, 2007 at 4:21 pm
I’ve always considered THE KILLING JOKE to be out of continuity, that way I can read it and believe (given that the themes and dialogue in the story within point to this) that Batman kills the Joker in the last panel, for me indicated by the fact that his laughter has stopped. Not sure if Moore intended it to be read that way but, damn, it’s a satisfying read.
The violence against Barbara to me is repugnant, but justified by the story, given her links to Batman and Gordon. Had it been some stranger maimed, the story would lose much of its resonance.
August 19th, 2007 at 5:42 pm
The Killing Joke may have been meant to be out of continuity, but it is definitely part of continuity now. Now only is Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair, but there have been comics where she thought back to the moment when Joker shot her.
August 22nd, 2007 at 5:35 pm
That means Ace the Bat-Hound is in continuity too! Yes!
August 2nd, 2008 at 1:09 pm
“. . .it was one of the earliest instances in comics of violence against women used to get a reaction out of a male character (the whole theme of the putrid ‘Identity Crisis’). . .”
Getting a specific male reaction was not the “whole theme” of ‘Identity Crisis.’ The theme surrounded the reactions of the heroes, period. This is evident in the fact that a woman not only supports the mind-wiping, but is the one who ultimately carries it out of her own will.