Ah, the always reliable “I’ve got nothing worthwhile to bitch about” rant of the week.

Haha, indeed!

You know, if you never saw that issue of Mary Jane, of which comparitively few were probably printed, there goes 95% of the argument.

By the way, not pushing WWH because of this? Way to keep your business going strong.

I don’t really get the uproar here.

Isn’t the whole Marvel Zombies gimmick that each cover zombifies a classic iconcic marvel image?

I don’t really like the Marvel ZOmbies series anyhow - but I don’t see it as some evil publishing plan to stir up controversy or dare readers to continue buying Marvel.

I don’t have anything against the writing or the art - I just don’t want to spend money to see SPidey and Cap as evil flesh devouring zombies . . .nuff said.

But I don’t understand the horror here. It’s for mature readers - what’s the problem?

Is it simply b/c the image it’s based on was of a young MJ? No slight to the Mary Jane comic - but that cover hasn’t reached iconic status - so I’m sure most people don’t get the reference . . .
. . . and if they did - what’s the problem?

What if it was the “Face it Tiger” scene - would that not be a problem b/c it’s an older MJ?

I’m lost here and it really seems like people are looking for problems.

ALl it takes is one politician to get this comic, misunderstand it and then get on TV deriding comic books for promoting necrophelia or some equal rubbish.

I think we need a bit of perspective here and not canniblize our own audience . . .no pun intended.

“But I don’t understand the horror here. It’s for mature readers - what’s the problem?”

- because people, who are generally unthinking automatons, will automatically buy the MZ HC b/c it looks like the cover of the MJ comic?

- because Marvel wants to sell huge volumes by putting a zombie-homage of a teen-oriented comic on the cover, to reach that specific market?

- because it’s Wednesday?

I’m going with that last one of why it’s a big deal. Lordy-be - if it wasn’t for the collective mind of the blogosphere, I wouldn’t know *what* to be outraged at anymore. Thank god we have a group to tell us what’s morally acceptable and right in our entertainment. I get so tired of thinking of myself, and not having something to outrage over.

Yay for hiccups and second drafts!

Pretty cool homage.

Not really seeing a problem with it.

For some reason, I don’t think this guy gets the whole Marvel Zombie gimmick.

I’ve seen some legitimate gripes the past few months, but I think people generally need to lighten up more. Way too much of that “Think of the CHILDREN!!” going around these days…

It never fails to amuse when people complain Mary Jane is not being portrayed wholesome enough–never mind if she’s standing the exact same way as on that Miyazawa cover. It’s not like this is the same character who had to claim the lingerie photoshoot she did professionally were actually private photos by Peter to keep Aunt May from having a coronary seeing them. Oh wait, it is.

“It’s repellent and gross, like all the Marvel Zombies covers, but the target audience is more a mature audience thing anyway, isn’t it? At least, I hope it is - I’d hate to see my local Comic Book Shop guy telling some kid “Loved that all ages Spidey comic? How about some MARVEL ZOMBIES? It’s got Spider-man in it, just like in the movie…only this time, he eats brains and intestines and stuff.””

:confused:

You never watched zombie or horror movies as a kid?

And it’s not like zombies are real. Or are they?

Yeah…not seeing it. I get the H4H thing…sure made sense. I get the statue thing…that was just stupid. But this? Eh…it’s just what Marvel Zombies has been doing since the start of the whole series/franchise. I actually find the Spider-man/MJ zombiefied wedding statue a lot more disturbing and not a peep about that one from anyone but Mike Sterling!

Look at that line of dismissive comments. Why are Marvel fans so threatened when Marvel’s social policies are criticized?

We never see this reaction when someone complains about DC. It must be a Marvel thing.

Interesting point, Kevin. I’m beginning to understand the whole zombies needing brains thing now.

I think my problem stems entirely from the “Oh goodie another zombie thing yeah that hasn’t been ran into the ground yet Marvel”.

Also a decaying 15-year old girl creeps me out.

You mean how when someone expresses an opinion on his blog and the group of people come out of the woodwork to specifically complain that he is complaining about nothing worthwhile.

That kind of groupthink?

“Look at that line of dismissive comments. Why are Marvel fans so threatened when Marvel’s social policies are criticized?

We never see this reaction when someone complains about DC. It must be a Marvel thing.”

I’m not sure I’ve ever been accused of being a Marvel Zombie, since I assure you I’m far from it.

But, it’s a zombie. Zombie’s look decomposed. I’m trying hard to figure out why I wouldn’t show my 2 little girls that cover, or why I would care if they saw it. If anything, it’d be either “ewww, gross” or “cool”, and they’d want to know why she was like that.

Does no one understand the concept of branding, and then protecting that brand? How can you create a brand marketed toward children, and then allow that bland to be manipulated as some horror fetish schlock?

You don’t see “Mickey Mouse Slaughter House” do you?

If you think it’s stupid and branding like this has no effect; look at how much trouble the tobacco industries got in for branding cigarettes in ways to aim them at children by using Joe Camel as a mascot.

“That kind of groupthink?” nah - I prefer the original, a complaint starts from a person with a specific point of view, and then a group of people come out of the wordwork to agree, agree, agree again, and then, agree, while at the same time, being dismissive of anyone who would see things differently, or not agree with the collective opinion, and are thus, summarily dismissed.

You may prefer the other version, tho, reactive as it is.

Philip–Yes, precisely. Stuff like this just emphasizes to me that Marvel, despite their protestations to the contrary, really aren’t ready to act like a real business. A real business simply wouldn’t go so far out of their way to blur the lines between their mature reader’s and their children’s lines.

I think that this cover, like the rest of the zombie covers, is pretty gross and I’m kind of tired of all the zombie stuff (which is no doubt influencing my opinion). I really wish Suydam would do something other than classic (or not so classic) cover + zombies (+ Ash from Evil Dead).

With that said… I’m seriously not seeing the sexiness in this cover. The zombie stuff kind of cancels it out, I guess. It’s ugly and it’s kinda dumb, but I thought the one that pastiched MJ and Pete’s marriage was way worse. I can see how people would like it and I can see how they dislike it, but I’m so tired of the zombie pastiche covers that any new one is irritating to me. I’d be perfectly fine never seeing a zombie cover ever again.

Lisa:

Look at that line of dismissive comments. Why are Marvel fans so threatened when Marvel’s social policies are criticized?

We never see this reaction when someone complains about DC. It must be a Marvel thing.

I can’t tell if this is sarcasm or not, but I don’t think it is, which is troubling. I kind of find it hard to believe that Marvel fans are somehow more likely to leap and chomp at the bit and dismiss people, while DC fans sit back, steeple their fingers, and explore every argument without being dismissive. There are jerks on both sides of the fence, and jerks tend to add aggravating background noise to any good discussion.

This isn’t Marvel vs DC. That’s for children. Neither company is objectively more/less mature/immature/better/worse than the other.

Brad–Yes, something DC published twenty-one years ago is equivalent to something Marvel is publishing today. Boy, you’ve sure put me in my place…

You’ll notice that in the time since DC has actually made efforts to differentiate their mature reader’s comics from their children’s comics. Yet the point remains that Marvel has taken a cover from one of their children’s comics and reappropriated it for a mature reader’s book. A business that cared about protecting the integrity of their product line wouldn’t do that.

“You’ll notice that in the time since DC has actually made efforts to differentiate their mature reader’s comics from their children’s comics.”

True, even going so far as to limited Vertigo/DC Universe cross-overs as much as possible (I think Zatana is an exception, though). Don’t know if that’s the reason or not, but it does make sense you wouldn’t want your kid picking up Preacher because Jesse appeared in last month’s issue of the Flash. Also, DC did come under a lot of flack for maturing Batman at the time.

“True, even going so far as to limited Vertigo/DC Universe cross-overs”

I meant “limit”. Bah, stupid fingers.

“Marvel could donate a billion dollars to charity and you could find someone on the net complaining that it wasnt more. Some people are constantly bitching about everything that comes from Marvel, even if they have to make up things to get outraged about. If DC had half as many people whining about their products people would be annoyed aswell”

Gee, could you sterotype any more? Besides, people here are defending the cover.

** If you think it’s stupid and branding like this has no effect; look at how much trouble the tobacco industries got in for branding cigarettes in ways to aim them at children by using Joe Camel as a mascot. **

Mary Jane has been a sexbomb ever since her first appearance. “Face it, Tiger - you just hit the jackpot!”

One could argue that Marvel should not have tried to ‘brand’ her for kids in the Mary Jane series in the first place!

We understand that some people find this offensive. There are those who find Zombie-Spider-MAN offensive. There are those who find regular Spider-Man in his tight suit offensive. There are those who find Spidey punching a bad guy with vulture wings offensive. There are those who find Uncle Ben’s death offensive.

The line isn’t drawn at Zombie Mary Jane. It can’t be. Because next is Spider-Man wearing tight trousers and writing an op-ed piece for the Bugle about crime instead of fighting it.

Some things offend me, some offend you. But to complain about zombies or tying up the heroes or their attire, that is on the slippery slope of assuming you have the moral high ground. And when you scream and swear and stomp your feet, you look like zealous nuts.

“Brad — Original groupthink? It was a single guy complaining. Is this some attempt to cut off the “raging fangirl herd” at the pass?”

Nope - apparently, like Sean McKeever and others, I was one of the fucktards who went to the site that was linked here to read the article and see the responses over there. You’ve got virtually the polar opposite of the reaction here over there, aside from a few outlyers mixed in, who must’ve slipped through the fucktard filter. That was the original groupthink, as there were, what, 27 responses over there before this thread hit a dozen?

And I find being called “baby” either insulting or sexist, I’m not sure which, but either way, it’s dismissive, which is hardly surprising.

I don’t know, Brad. I agree with you about the comic, but I find you really off-putting. People who disagree with us aren’t groupthink robots. They just disagree. If you really hope to persuade folks on the other side (is that your goal?), maybe you should take a little while, and I don’t know, be nice?

I cannot count how many times I read an issue of one of Spider-Man’s many titles when I was younger where she was wearing lingerie that showed it all (well, enough to get by the comics code, that is).

And just now people are up in arms over one piece of art where she’s portrayed as the living dead??

Is it worse to see the cover and be disgusted immediately and know that’s not for you or your child… or buy a comic for your child, expecting Spider-Man action, and get a big surprise “fan service” moment of MJ lounging around waiting to having sex with Pete??

Once again, this is just the “I’ve got nothing worthwhile to bitch about” rant of the week.

I thought kids LOVED zombie movies. Am I wrong?

I Should have brought some cheese if I knew there would be this much whine.

/popcorn

Keep it coming, folks. All we need is Kurt Busiek and it’d be a FBR throwback thread…

To everyone whining about characters intended for children being misappropriated by/for adults, I present:

http://pwbeat.publishersweekly.com/blog/2007/06/13/more-special-forces-art/#respond

I think some of the “backlash against the backlash” stems from the extremity of the initial backlash. I mean, they’re putting out some dubious stuff (and DC has done so too, as you point out) but I feel like when DC does it people who are upset just roll their eyes at Supergirl/Batwoman/an Adam Hughes cover/etc., whereas Marvel’s recent misdeeds have led a lot of people to say that they’re DONE WITH MARVEL or BOYCOTTING SEXIST MARVEL or similar rather hyperbolic reactions.

I’m of the opinion that Marvel (or more accurately, certain people who create content for Marvel and Marvel-licensed-products) have put out some pretty sleazy, maybe even outright loathesome things; the MJ Statue, the Zombie Spider-Man/Dead MJ Statue, the Heroes for Hire/Brood cover, and now the Mary Jane Zombies cover.

The entire Zombies fad in general I feel is dumb and involves a lot of “sexy” dead girls from Suydam. I felt the same way about pretty much everything done with Supergirl since she ‘came back’, but I’m able to compartmentalize those issues; I don’t buy Marvel Zombies, I don’t buy Supergirl, and I’m not going to buy one of Adam Hughes’s sexploitation statues with a female character in underpants holding her brave hero husband’s costume submissively, whether it’s Big Barda or Mary Jane.

But, I’m going to continue buying Monster Society of Evil and Captain America and All-Star Superman and Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane and Batman and New Avengers, because I like those comics. I’m also not going to buy comics that I think are kind of cool (Catwoman, She-Hulk to name two) because their covers make me embarrassed to be seen with them.

There are still plenty of meatheads who are going to defend anything up to and including a removable-panties-Supergirl-Realdoll, but when people start decrying sexism because they believe that this cover is “sexualizing” knife wounds

http://manstreamcomics.livejournal.com/3474.html

and other similar “Marvel is Evil” forays, I can see why there is a backlash, and why people inclined to brush the whole topic off will lump legitimate grievances in with the ones that are flailing and decide they’re all silly.

I can’t be sure where the blood diamond analogy was going, but from what I can guess it indeed wasn’t a very good one. This cover does not do violence to anybody. It does blatantly (and deliberately) sexualize violence against women, however. Regardless of whether the sum is sexy, violence and sex are clearly the compontent parts of the image. Especially since she obviously hasn’t started decomposing yet, what with all of her intact skin still being perfectly smooth and pinkish and generally healthy-looking and not-corpse-like. Thus, the extensive damage we see to her body would have all been caused by violence against her; while anywhere she hasn’t been mutilated her body remains disturbingly ’sexy’. The total effect naturally offends some people.

You don’t have to find it offensive yourself, but it doesn’t take a whole lot of imagination to figure out how others do. On the other hand, why some people seem to have such a personal interest in defending the image to the point of attacking those who complain about it is a bit less scrutable. It’s as if they feel they’ve been accused of something when they discover things they think perfectly fine can still offend others; in seeming contradiction of the fact that upon discovering such, the only one there to accuse them would be themselves.

** The line isn’t drawn at Zombie Mary Jane. It can’t be. Because next is Spider-Man wearing tight trousers and writing an op-ed piece for the Bugle about crime instead of fighting it. **
The line should not be drawn at anything that happens to fit the words “Zombie Mary Jane”, no. This particular imagining of Zombie Mary Jane, however, is a bit more than just those three words. It’s “deliberately playing up her sexuality in what would be a typically hot picture if not for the horrible violence done to her face and select regions of her body (so parts of her can still be hot) Zombie Mary Jane”. Sliiightly easier to imagine drawing the line there, I have to confess. And since it’s only through market force that any lines will be drawn at all, your nightmare scenarios of what amounts to people who don’t even like comics dictating what’s allowed in them are a bit unrealistic.

I think you’re reaching incredibly to make such distinction between “DC fans” and “Marvel fans”, as if such a thing really constitutes the majority of the readership these days — then again, maybe it does for DC, since most of their best-selling books are insular fan service to hardcore fans — stuff like Infinite Crisis, Countdown, Identity Crisis, Superman/Batman, the abysmal relaunches of Green Lantern, Supergirl, Wonder Woman, Flash, Justice League etc. This to say nothing of All-Star Batman & Robin, which is totally urbane and girl friendly and clever, not at all like that stupid PUNISHER fellow!

Comics that don’t feature big lead characters and/or UNIVERSE SHATTERING RAPE or whatever don’t sell in the direct market to monthly comics fans. This cuts across company lines; She-Hulk doesn’t sell, but neither does Catwoman. Runaways doesn’t sell, but neither does Blue Beetle. JLA, X-Men, Spider-Man and Superman will all continue to sell even if they let six year olds write and draw them, regardless of whether they’re Marvel or DC properties. These are the facts of the direct market, and have very little to do with the companies or their “fanbase.”

And that’s not to mention that Greg Rucka’s fantastic Wonder Woman run wasn’t selling well enough for DC to keep it around, and now we have the aborted relaunch attempt staggering around like a drunk who was just shot in the liver. It’s terrible, and the only reason we have it is because DC fans - who Tuckenie seems to put on a pedastool - wouldn’t buy the book when it was high quality and about more than putting Wonder Woman through the same damned arc three or four times in a row.

Don’t act like DC fans don’t flock to retarded sales gimmicks like “ALAN HEINBERG, TV SUPERSTAR” or “52: WORLD WAR III SPECIAL (in 5 parts)”

“You don’t see “Mickey Mouse Slaughter House” do you?”

No, but I do remember an episode of DuckTales where Launchpad was turned into a zombie. That’s a Disney property.

Wow, that was like the single most condescending reply you could’ve made. I am not a child, and I didn’t make one of the immature responses that the trolls on this blog and Butcher did, so don’t speak to me as if I was either of them, please. I was civil with you, be civil with me.

Yes, I did read your posts upthread. Did you read mine, as well? I’m far from a Marvel Zombie.

I read your post where you responded to someone intimating that Marvel fans are somehow less enlightened than DC fans, and, to a reasonable reader, your post agreed with her point. Your post was practically trolling, dude. You painted every single person who reads Marvel comics with a broad brush and insulted their intelligence and maturity while you did it, and then implied, when people answered back, that they were in a blind fury? I don’t think any of the posters who answered you, myself included, would suggest that Marvel is a perfect place.

My point was that Marvel is no different from DC, and I’m willing to bet that most of the “Marvel fans” are also “DC fans.” “They’re called Marvel Zombies for a reason” adds nothing to this discussion, except furthering a ridiculous and nonsensical divide.

Your post, and Lisa’s, are playing up this fan rivalry crap, as if the two companies attract completely different kinds of fans. It’s City Name Sports Team versus Other City Name Sports Team. It’s “My superhero can beat up your superhero.”

David — I’m sorry to imply that Marvel fans are less enlightened than DC fans. Anyone who’s ever been to the DC-hosted boards wouldn’t even consider the idea that DC fans are enlightened, so I didn’t mean to imply that.

But I’m seriously curious about the different trolls produced by the two companies. There was picking at DC for over a year, but a few Marvel covers and we get an explosion of backlash. I do think many Marvel-reading trolls are more defensive, perhaps, of the property when they dismiss criticism. DC-reading trolls usually go the “Why are you mad about such a little thing? You should see what they’re doing HERE. that’s more worthy of complaint” route of dismissing criticism and get their own company-bashing in as they dismiss the social issue in favor of a fan grudge.

And well, you know me when I hit a troll’s nerve.

Graeme McMillan is retarded.

David Brothers: This is NOT a DC/Marvel argument. This is a sexism argument. Both companies are guilty. It’s just Marvel is hitting the buttons more. Before then, it WAS DC (Stephanie Brown, Cassandra Cain). Heck, its still DC. Look at Amazons Attack!

Both companies are acting like jerks. We’re just calling them out on what they are doing.

Marvel Zombies are shocking the first time you see them.
I mean, since i live in Mexico, i didn’t knew about the series until may 2006 while i was searching in the Wikipedia for Earth-X…so i got the huge panel of “Marvel Multiverse” category and i saw “Marvel Zombies” in there…i thought it was a parody (you know, cartoon-like drawing or something that looked like Nextwave draw style…something funny) But, heck no, i got pretty SHOCKED when i saw the covers and what Marvel was doing to my childhood heroes (i mean, i was 17 when i saw MZ for the first time). I felt that it was real sick and gross…i mean, its okay to have Spider-Man being killed by demons off-panel (What if X-men lost inferno) or the whole depressive Earth-X storyline. But, first of all, the only shocking thing about MZ are the covers.
Suydam did a good job, but the covers scared the hell out of me (i have to admit it, i’m scared about zombies, but i play Resident Evil and see movies…i’m such a masochist).
This cover is the most “shocking” for the eyes…i mean, my 6-year old niece was reading the Mary Jane miniseries and i’m looking to see her face when she sees this.
I love the way the Marvel Zombies stuff is going, but i mean, this cover sucked. Looks like a necrophile’s wet dream…Suydam was really crazy when he painted this, no offense for him since he is one of my favorite comic book artists, but this cover is kind of sick for me..
What’s next? Spider-Ham one? Power Pack miniseries? Marvel Fairy Tales?
But Mangaverse zombies would rock.