God bless Tom Brevoort for having the guts to just come out and say it:
I cannot stomach the current fannish tendency to refer to the mainstream Marvel universe as “616.” It bugs me, in a sort of dopey, excusionary way… [R]eferring to the main Marvel Earth as 616 is counter-intuitive to the principles underlying the Marvel Universe as a whole–specifically, that while it’s a world of fantasy, there’s still enough of a semblance of verisimilitude that allows the average reader to relate these stories and events in a meaningful way to their own lives and conflicts and struggles. Marvel’s Earth is meant to be the “real world” far more than any fantasy construct. I have no problem with Alan’s use in his original stories, but thereafter calling it Earth 616 makes it feel all the more like a place of make-believe, of science fiction, of unreality. Which is it, of course, but acknowledging that in this direct a way shatters the illusion a bit too much for my tastes.
I also think it’s exclusionary. It’s the sort of term that means absolutely nothing to any reader who isn’t dyed-in-the-wool–even long-time readers don’t know where the tag comes from or what it signifies. And so the hardcore readers started to toss it around as a badge of honor, as a codeword that allowed them to identify one another. And from there, it simply began to grow.
More in the link, but I really don’t like the “616″ thing either, so Tom kicks the ass of rock for this one.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:11 am
Yeah that’s why they have clones. Of gods.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:19 am
THANK YOU! I’m afraid that my virginity will be retroactively restored if I ever use that label.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:26 am
As someone who has very little head for retention of fictional stories, I have to agree with Tom 100% as well. I don’t see the point of referencing obscure stuff like that, it doesn’t enhance ANY storytelling, and it just seems mean-spirited besides.
April 13th, 2007 at 9:39 am
Maybe if Marvel went currently running like 5 or 6 six different universe continuities at the moment fans wouldn’t need a determination for Marvel Earth. Or Earth Proper. Wait, just Earth… with Marvel Heroes? What the heck am I supposed to say?!
April 13th, 2007 at 9:59 am
Yeah, “616″ is a horribly dorky term, but I have to admit it’s a bit less clunky than “the original Marvel Universe” or “the non-Ultimate, non-Adventures universe”.
Although the real reason I like it is because DC had Earth-1, Earth-2, etc. — it feels kind of appropriate that Spider-Man, always the hard luck case, gets stuck way down the list on Earth-616.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:03 am
Though I agree with Tom that there’s no need to be so pedantic as to reference the Marvel universe as a particular numbered continuum . . . come on, be a little realistic here, Tom (pun intended).
“Oh, yes, our stories take place in the real world, minus, you know, the laws of physics. And sometimes logic.”
I’m sorry, but when you are writing stories of a universe wherein a weapon of the Norse gods gets tossed out of Asgard, opens a portal to hell, and a magician/Eastern-European-dictator/scientific genius can escape . . . you have to give up a few aspects of realism. Marvel is not the “real” world, and it never could be without completely straining suspension of disbelief. That’s why I’d rather it be a fully fictional universe, rather than one that attempts to be “our” universe, whether you call that realm “616″ or not. Though I say not.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:11 am
So Brevoort dislikes the “616″ designation because it makes a fictional universe seem more fictional? Cripes.
I like “616″ more than “Main Marvel U.”, or “Primary marvel U.” or whatever, but about of half of the Marvel comics I read take place in other realities, so that may have something to do with it.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:15 am
Alan Moore came up with it, that makes it way less dorky.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:35 am
Wow, a current Marvel editor is disdainful of his faithful readership? I’m totally shocked! I mean, everyone knows that Marvel hold its fans (and well as retailers of its product) in the highest regard. Tom must have just been having a bad day or something. This is certainly not endemic of Quimby Marvel’s approach as a whole.
April 13th, 2007 at 10:50 am
Wow, a current Marvel editor is disdainful of his faithful readership?
It never ceases to amaze how people can read something into a statement that just isn’t there. He says he doesn’t agree with something a small subset of hardcore fans do. How does that translate into being disdainful of the entire faithful readsership?
April 13th, 2007 at 11:44 am
Count me on as someone who dislikes the “616″ appelation too. I think it just confuses things even more.
Best,
Hunter (Pedro Bouça)
April 13th, 2007 at 12:52 pm
It doesn’t bother me so much as I think it’s really dumb.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:16 pm
So it’s bad because using the term makes the MU a ‘place of unreality, make-believe, science fiction’)
Errrm but it *is* a place of unreality, make-believe and fiction. I don’t see what’s so terrible about flagging it as that since that is y’know the *truth*.
Sorry to break it to you, but Spider Man isn’t real. Really.
April 13th, 2007 at 1:33 pm
I’ve been reading Marvel since 78 and uh…I have no idea what 616 means. Did I miss an issue? Is it the name of Tony Stark’s favorite bar or something? The amount of pills Aunt May needs a day? Damien Hellstorm’s neihbor’s address? No really, what does it mean?
April 13th, 2007 at 2:19 pm
Jason: In Alan Moore’s Captain Britain run, Merlin referred to the Marvel Universe Proper as “Earth 616.” This, with books such as the Ultimate line and the Adventures line being published, came to be shorthand for the “normal” Marvel Universe.
I personally don’t care, because I have never encountered an instance where using the “616″ designation has offended or confused someone to the point of alienation. (Most, like Jason here, just ask and someone kindly explains).
Heck, the book “Exiles” went so far as to take the numbering system and run with it, referring to the Marvel Universe proper as “Earth 616″ when the Exiles showed up during “House of M” as well as numbering the various earth’s they came across during subsequent arcs.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
The explanation is in the link.
This was actually educational for me ’cause I didn’t know what it referenced either. I thought it was something someone in the Ultimates Universe came up with, because that’s about the time that I started hearing fans use it.
Now that I know it’s an old Captain Britain reference, I think it’s especially geeky, but I can see how folks wanted an easy label for the main Marvel U. They shouldn’t be criticized for being “exclusionary” any more than Brevoort should for being “disdainful of his faithful readership,” when that’s not the motivation of either party.
April 13th, 2007 at 2:42 pm
I think it’s just a bit of fun.
And let’s be honest–if you’re in deep enough to be in a discussion of different Marvel continuities, calling one of them by a number shouldn’t scare you away.
April 13th, 2007 at 3:30 pm
Hey, Elayne, care to elaborate upon how the use of Earth-616 is “mean-spirited?” I’ve been thinking about that one for a few minutes now and I’ve got nothing.
Anyway, I think the use of “Earth-616″ and other alternate universe designations is a necessary evil. And, as in most instances where Tom posts his opinions on his blog, he seems to oversimplify things in order to make a half-baked point. First, I’m not entirely sure what Tom’s blog is actually complaining about: (1) fans using the “Earth-616″ designation in casual comic conversations or (2) the actual reference to the designation in published comics.
I agree that you don’t want to go around using the term in every comic title. For instance, you wouldn’t have Daredevil or Spider-Man saying, “Boy, it sure is a lovely day here in good ol’ Earth-616, just one of the many realities of the Marvel Multiverse.” But the alternate reality designations do serve an important purpose in books like EXILES and FANTASTIC FOUR, where you have characters who deal with alternate realities quite frequently. Of course there would be some sort of system of classifying the alternate realities, and referring to worlds as “the Reality Where Spider-Man Joined the Fantastic Four” and “the Reality Where Kulan Gath took over Manhattan” would be entirely to unwieldy.
So my point is that the alternate universe designations serve an important purpose in certain stories, and Tom Brevoort probably can’t stomach it because he didn’t think things through all the way.
April 13th, 2007 at 6:54 pm
I’ll live with it. It keeps things tidier than the alternatives. And Alan Moore came up with it. He may have been cribbing off of Gardner Fox when he did it, but why not? So does everyone else with a lick of sense.
April 13th, 2007 at 8:15 pm
CalvinPitt said: “So Brevoort dislikes the “616″ designation because it makes a fictional universe seem more fictional? Cripes.”
I used to hate those Imaginary Stories DC used to have in the Superman and/or Action Comics way back when because, to my reasoning, they “weren’t real”.
Silly, silly fanboy thing.
April 13th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
I think perhaps Moore was having a bit of fun at Marvel’s expense.
It has long been argued by some that the Mark of the Beast was actually 616. (Moore, being Moore, might agree.)
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/POxy/beast616.htm
http://www.edwardtbabinski.us/skepticism/616666.html
http://www.beliefnet.com/story/166/story_16630_1.html
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4159/is_20050501/ai_n14607913
This info is also available at that site that sounds something like wicked-pedia.
April 15th, 2007 at 8:44 am
Been reading comics since 1977, I have read definitions of 616, and NEVER, I mean never remember what the hades it means. It particularly annoys me when it’s used heavily in a discussion with little context and just serves to even further obscure the hype of whatever the person is talking about. My confusion on 616 reminds me of how my eyes glaze over whenever they discuss prime numbers…
April 15th, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Like other people have said, “Earth 616″ is easier and faster to type then “Marvel Universe.” I seldom use it in real-life conversations, but on the internet, it’s a convenient shortcut.