Comic Bloc wants to get DC and wash its collective mouth out with soap:
“Now I’m 22, hopelessly, pathetically single, so no kids in my forseeable future. However, some day (far far in the future) I would like to have kids, and I would LOVE it if my kids loved and enjoyed comics as much as I do. In fact, I have a lot of comics that I have NO intention of getting rid of and that I can just invision my imaginary children reading. but recently (in the past few years) I’ve noticed that cuss words have appeared much more frequently in comics, and not just Vertigo, or Gotham Central (which oddly enough they bleeped some out), or even books like Manhunter which is darker to begin with, but in books like Birds of Prey, Legion of Super-heroes, and most recently, Green Lantern… However, it seems that DC won’t even bother to bleep the words out or tell the writers to use a different phrase. In this week’s GL (#18) Cowgirl asks Hal ’s she always this b*****?’ could she not have asked if she was always this ‘catty’ could they not have bleeped it out, would either have been that hard? I say no, and I don’t think it would have really bothered anyone to have catty instead of the b-word (plus y). Also, I notice that that other word for a donkey gets used ALL the time with no bleeping, now unless you are taking about a donkey I don’t think it should be in the book because how are kids supposed to read that stuff if parents have to CONSTANTLY check what they are reading. I want to be able to plop down the entire Legion run without haveing to reread them all to see which have objectional language and which do not. I want to be able to give them characters beyond Superman to get them to read comics and to explore these wonderful characters and universes that have brought me so much joy.”
“I see a group at DC pushing the cussing envelope for shock (re: violence) for some kind of ’street cred’ to their books… [W]e are in the minority and people cannot speak in life without using cuss words. If they have to pick a different word, it is an infringement on their freedoms and a slippery slope to censorship. I have learned in the course of this battle is PEOPLE NEED THEIR CUSSING and most writers cannot avoid it because it is so closely tied to the storytelling and drama… At least thank goodness Marvel still uses the %&*^% especially in New Avengers. I don’t have a problem with %$@*^ I can put in whichever word I wanted and have it speak as cleanly as I do. Others have an option. DC feels that the writer’s intention should never be tempered. Writers feel this is something that without, their scripting would suffer. I guess its more important that the writer’s vision of having a superhero (or supporting character) call someone the B-Word is more valuable than the readers who may be offended. But to each their own.”
“I’m not a huge square, but I have a certain beef with what is considered swearing/profaninty and what is “allowed/condoned.” I hate that comics/movies/radio djs/tv use Jesus Christ or God Damn in place of ‘what the f!#$!’ or ‘Holy sh*#!’ They replace a ‘bad’ word by using Jesus’ name or God’s. Seems a little distorted. Consider - taking a sh*@ is one the most natural things - babies do it day one and will continue to do it daily until they’re 101. If we didn’ take a sh*@ for days we’d get sick. Take the f-word: All of us are here because our parents f!#$-ed. Yet we turn that into a bad word, and replace it with an angry ‘Jesus!’ - all I ask, is next time a character says something like that - ask -what are they really saying/doing. they’re swearing and taking my Lord’s name in vain. Just seems synonyms for poop and sex shouldn’t be as taboo and using the Holy of Holy as an angry epitaph should be shunned. I never picked up the next issue of All Star Batman after Batman’s little outburst.”
“I buy a lot of comics and this industry is hurting as it is. If they want me to start dropping titles then I will. If people want cursing then publishers can put them in ‘adult’ titles. Not their main titles. It’s not all-ages friendly. I know I wouldn’t let my children read comics like that. So, to make a long story short, I’d like to see the comics code authority brought back.”
In all seriousness, doesn’t DC still use the CCA on some of their superhero books?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 am
But isn’t it better for kids to learn the proper way of cussin’ from their parents than it is to learn it on the street?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 am
But isn’t it better for kids to learn the proper way of cussin’ from their parents than it is to learn it on the street?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:49 am
I would trade an “ass” or two for some shorter sentences.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:51 am
No, sir. Uh-uh. You do not get to post those comments and then wrap it up with that “In all seriousness” &*%$#.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:56 am
Isn’t it obvious? “Bitch” and “ass” aren’t curse words anymore.
There. Problem solved.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:07 am
Yeah…that’s the deal. The FCC allows BITCH, ASS, and even PUSSY on the radio and TV…both are methods of delivery entertainment into the home that are infinitely more likely to wind up in front of kids and parents have even less they can do to prevent it.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:07 am
Meh, pretty much all of these comics have people solving their problems through violence. That might be more of a long-term issue than kids reading a few words that they only hear in the playground.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 am
Language evolves and changes. Words like “ass” and “bitch” have a different cultural meaning than they used to 20 years ago and aren’t considered profanity anymore. Don’t blame the comics for reflecting reality.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:37 am
DC hasn’t always been more lenient with language than Marvel. Sure, it’s gotten worse, but I remember when I first started reading comics (1989) that you’d see “hell” and “damn” in a DC comic but never a Marvel one. You’d think that it would be the other way around, but it hasn’t been.
I suppose that 18 years later, things have just progressed further. You know, there used to be a time when kids knew you didn’t use those words in front of your parents. Sure, you said them, but not in front of the adults. Today’s kids, though, are different. No shame. No respect for adults. No sense of right or wrong.
I’m SO old.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:02 am
Not “no sense of right and wrong.” Just one that doesn’t include taboos on naughty words.
Well, some kids have no sense of right and wrong, just like always. (As do some adults.)
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:06 am
“Children today are tyrants. They contradict their parents, gobble their food, and tyrannize their teachers.”
—Socrates
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:20 am
That Socrates is so right on. Does he have a blog?
also,
I need a ruling on “bitch-ass pussy”.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:24 am
No words scare me. What I find scary is knowing that there are some words that some people find to be “bad words”. And even more absurd the fact that those so-called “bad words” are somehow right for grownups but not so for younger readers.
Do we live in medieval or even primitive times, where the sound of words is so powerful that some of them have to be avoided? Can’t you see how WRONG is to “bleep” out words, not to mention utterly ridiculous?
And why, WHY does the world have to conform to this kind of ignorant, fascist thinking??!!!
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:03 pm
This in unbelievable! He’s threatening to stop buying comics because he plans to have kids some day and doesn’t want them to read bleeped out swearing?
Gee, I hope he’s also not buying anything with small parts–JUST IN CASE!
What’s the principal comic book buying demographic? 25-35? Good grief.
I could understand not buying comic books FOR his kids IF he has kids AND IF those comic books contain material he deems unsuitable for them. But this is truly remarkable.
Sounds like someone’s using the possibility of someday having kids as an excuse to rant about something they’re too embarassed to rant about themself. Dude, if you don’t like swearing just say so. It’s ok. Some of my best friends don’t like swearing. Don’t blame it on kids you don’t even have.
Besides we all know kids today don’t read DCU when they could read yaoi manga instead…
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Instead of attacking like some have in response, stop and realize that not all of us surround ourselves in the culture of everyday cussing. Some of us stand for free speech, but every now and then we would love to see a bit less or a “*&^%$#@!” replacement for the words that are considered “vulgar” and not used as appropriate language in many everyday events. Just because some of us don’t like that language does not make us fascist. I am a Christian, but I am not a part of the Right-Wing Conservative movement. Yet, I must listen to “Progressives” Cuss and take my Lord’s name in vain and no say it is wrong to me.
I read Fallen Angel, It is full of cussing, I understand this and say nothing, it is my choice. But when reading Superman, Spider-Man, or other big name characters that I might want to share with a child one day, it is not too much to ask that there be a consideration to the language, can people not write without this crutch? And on the 25-35 demographic, wonder when they started reading those books. I was seven when I started reading, 34 now. Where do you think the readers come from?
Great topic, I give you greif over the constant MillarWorld junk, so it is only fair to say good job when you post some thing like this.
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm
Oh, so cussing’s a “progressive” thing?
Please.
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:53 pm
I request - nay, DEMAND - that Disney begin putting copious swearing in its movies. It’s time to quit squelching artistic freedom. I can’t believe Cinderella doesn’t call her stepmom a bitch in CINDERELLA III. What a bunch of fascists.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:02 pm
No, it is not, But just like any label, some forget that not all do and say exactly alike when they synch up on most other things. I am by all accounts a liberal, but also a Christian. When listening to fellow liberals, it is clear that because of the “jerks” in Christianity that do not represent well, all of us are fair game.
There is a difference in censorship and just being polite. I do not expect a person that uses language that once was stated as not being appropriate in “polite company” to transform into a person that never cusses again, but like any situation, you should be respectful to others around you.
I know that many Christians are not fans of Halloween, sci-fi, supernatural stories, etc. I do not blather on about these things with them. I make sure not to inflict something I feel ok with onto them. As I said, not all of us live in an environment where the words being discussed are used in common conversation.
So Please, realize what is being said. Just like there are those that promote a “culture war” on the conservative side, there are those that promote that all Christians are ignorant and not able to be Progressive.
Cussing is really just a way of either shocking or not having a broad enough vocabulary to use more of any language. The only exception is areas of culture where the words are so common as to not be noticed as cuss words. There are places like this. And those growing up mimicing this speech are not ignorant or less educated. Just like those of us in the South saying y’all and ain’t, some things you pick up. But there are billions of words out there, so every now and then is it really too much to ask to not cuss?
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:04 pm
Maybe the compromise is for DC to put out more Kid friendly comics. Not for profit, but for the sake of getting comics in a new generations hands. Then as they grow and are allowed to make their own decisions they can graduate to a stronger themed comicbook.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Well, every now and then they don’t. Heck, the majority of time they don’t.
There are lots of reasons to swear that you don’t list. You could feel it’s the right word to represent the idea you’re trying to communicate, for example. The same reason you’d use any other word.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:25 pm
I think we can find some points of agreement, Paladin, even though we’re coming at it from opposite ends.
You wrote:
Cussing is really just a way of either shocking or not having a broad enough vocabulary to use more of any language.
I pretty much fundamentally disagree with that, even give the caveats you add afterward. I don’t think the only function of cuss words are their shock value, or as a poor substitute for some more erudite phrasing. I think that sometimes, a swear is exactly the word a writer or speaker wants to use. Or, to quote Spencer Tracy’s character in Inherit the Wind:
“I don’t swear for the hell of it. Language is a poor enough means of communication. We’ve got to use all the words we’ve got.”
That said, I think there’s a lot of cussing in comics that is just plain lazy. “Using all the words we’ve got” also means using a tamer word when it’s called for, as well. I remember an issue of Fantastic Four when Sue Storm mentioned an ass-kicking in some context. It might have been blanked out, it might not have – but either way, it seemed out of character.
In contrast, however, I don’t think replacing “Was she always this bitchy?” with “Was she always this catty?” works. “Catty” is an old-fashioned word for “bitchy.” It’s what someone might say when they’re holding their tongue, and I don’t think it would be in character for Cowgirl in that context of an attack by Star Sapphire. (It might be, however, if she were meeting Hal’s mom (if she were still alive).
Context matters. I could see Superman saying something nearly “kicked his ass,” when talking to Batman or Lois—confidantes with whom he would hold nothing back. But when talking to Ma or Pa Kent, he’d probably say “kicked my butt.” And when speaking in front of a child, he’d phrase things differently altogether.
I want writers to think about what they write. Sometimes it seems like they don’t (even if they have – who can know for sure, really?). But the use or non-use of profanity is a symptom of that larger issue, in my opinion.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:31 pm
I find a bit of disconnect here, and maybe it’s just me. An overuse of cussing and vulgar langauge can be a sign of lazy writing as well as cheapen the story or characters. The OP on Comic Blok has an issue with the writer putting the word “bitch” in Cowgirl’s dialog, but doesn’t register an opinion on the nearly naked Star Sapphire on the cover or in the story. Her breasts, buttocks, and vagina are barely concealed under that costume!
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Funny people are worried about a few stylistic choices of profanity when you can buy a comic without an ass shot any more.
And don’t even get me started about Greg Land.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:48 pm
that was suppused to read “can’t buy”
Me and typing are not friends…
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:05 pm
Maybe they just wanted to stay on-message an not get sidetracked into a discussion about sexism?
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
It’s no worse than the type of language you see on ordinary network television.
And, heaven forbid a child hears/reads a bit of cursing. It’s not like they’re going to go their entire life without being exposed to this stuff, and I really have no clue why parents work so hard to shelter children from such basic things.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:07 pm
(And how long would it have taken me to proofread that sentence? Sheesh.)
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:17 pm
At its core, I don’t think it’s a matter of sheltering children from hearing curses. I think it’s the only effective way of sheltering them from saying curses, and consequently being punished or stigmatized for it. And there’s also a bit of self-sheltering, as well. Who wants to hear his four-year-old whine that he doesn’t want to eat his fuckin’ peas?
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:20 pm
They’re going to hear that stuff no matter what, and I think it’s safe to say that there comes a time in every child’s toddler years when he/she gets told “no-no” for saying a bad word without really realizing what it means. My point is, profanity exists, everyone gets exposed to it, and sheltering a small child from it as if it’s the black plague is an altogether pointless effort. If it weren’t, there’d be a lot less swearing among the general populace. EVERYBODY whines about not wanting to eat their fuckin’ peas sometimes.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:34 pm
I don’t disagree, Logic — I’m just doing my best to explain the impulse.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:44 pm
Rob S. we probably are closer on the subject than we think. At the end it would boil down to communication and context.
Same as here, in the context of a short run in run out discussion, all points of communication cannot be as clear as if we were in a less disjointed face to face talk.
Love the Inherit the Wind reference.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:49 pm
Two people with different points of view coming to a satisfying resolution? It’s an Internet miracle!
We better watch it, Palladin — they might throw us off the Newsarama boards.
Cheers, mate.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:11 pm
From what I read over at the Forum, Matt is on the case of people NOT coming to a reso;ution that does not involve playing nice, so let us set the example. 8]
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:24 pm
“Oh, so cussing’s a “progressive” thing?”
“Just because some of us don’t like that language does not make us fascist.”
Same weak counterarguments as ever…
No, of course “cussing” is not “progressive”, did I say anything like that? No, I did not. Cussing it is just a fact. It has no value in itself.
And no, disliking “foul” or “dirty” language does not make you a fascist by no means.
But if you happen across so-called bad-language, you should just refrain yourself from reading that book, or watching that movie, or listening to that song. It’s YOUR choice. If instead of making that choice you ask for the words to be excised from that book, movie or song, if you ask for the world around you to be purged and conformed to YOUR vision… now THAT’S what makes you a fascist.
The guy who wrote the open letter above found some “disgusting” languages in some comic books. OK. So don’t buy them. Don’t read them. It is THAT easy. But no, instead of that, he DEMANDS of DC to suppress what he finds offensive, so he can “safely” give those books to his future children to read.
THAT is FASCIST.
If you don’t like your SUPERMAN cussing or whatever, go find some book where he does not. There are PLENTY of them out there. And if there were not, just buy some other book. Or you can even STOP buying ALL of them. Again, it is YOUR choice, it should only be YOUR choice, so do not try to impose YOUR choice on other readers, or even the creators themselves.
Do you have a “better-half”, a companion, a girlfriend, boyfriend? Ok, so tell me, did you hooked up with someone you liked in the first place, or did you get together with someone whose manners or language offended you, and then MADE him/her to be JUST the way you want him/her to be?
I am fully aware that there are many people who work THAT way even in their relationships, but things SHOULD really be the other way. Find what YOU like. Don’t go telling the others to CHANGE just to PLEASE you.
If you think you have the RIGHT to do so, if you find it in yourself to try and MAKE THEM just as you like it… again, THAT is what makes fascists.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
No, of course “cussing” is not “progressive”, did I say anything like that?
No, but the guy who posted directly above me did. Sometimes it’s not all about you.
But don’t worry about Palladin and me. We worked it out.
And that “fascism” thing you’ve got going? Hilarious.
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:04 pm
“No, but the guy who posted directly above me did. Sometimes it’s not all about you.”
Yeah, why attack my arguments when you can cut the chase and attack me?
Because I read nothing on your post about the simple power of exerting CHOICE instead of imposing YOUR choices to the world around you.
“And that “fascism” thing you’ve got going? Hilarious.”
Yeah, as hilarious to people trying to get graphic novels banned from public libraries for being “not suitable”, or as hilarious to a country who happily watches TV broadcast where words are silenced and contents edited out (and even mouths get “mosaic” pixel screens so you can’t make out those oh so terrible words!) so as to “not offend” (I wonder, what about those of us offended by THAT?), or as hilarious as a music industry who cater censored editions of records to the conservative consumer base just so they don’t miss a single dollar profit, and even have the nerve to calle those “CLEAN” versions. Yeah, not censored, but clean, as oppossed to… “dirty”?
Yeah, what you said. Hilarious. Just keep on smiling.
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Heaven forbid anyone make a product for the consumer.
To just dump an opinion flat out as the be all end all, after two people discussed in a nice manner the two sides of an issue, just makes the arguements seem…..small.
For your info, I never put forth an opinion that ALL comics should BAN cussing, neither did the original poster. It seemed the request was when dealing with the broader comsumption product one be sensitive to the fact that no everyone is comfortable with the use of that language.
By all menas, read any comicbook you want with cussing in it.
Any further rants are just going to have to be without me….moving on, Rob S I thank you for a good discussion between the two of us. Liked the theme of your Blog as well.
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Christians are the new “oppressed minority”.
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:34 pm
“Comics should be for kids.”
That boat sailed a long time ago. If you start swimming, you might be able to catch it.
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pm
JMM wrote:
Because I read nothing on your post about the simple power of exerting CHOICE instead of imposing YOUR choices to the world around you.
Then you didn’t read my post. My main one was all about authorial choice.
No sense reading any more of yours, then, either.
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:55 pm
Thanks, Palladin. I’m checking out your blog as we speak. Thanks again for the good conversation.