Jenn at Reappropriate caused a small cross-blog uproar over her All-New Atom #2 review. It attracted the attention of the internet-prowling writer of the comic, Gail Simone, who engaged the critic in conversation.
Yesterday, Jenn posted a follow-up to her review with a postscript that should give hope to all comics bloggers:
[Post-script: I did notice that Ms. Simone suggested that we write her some feedback on how she might improve the All-New Atom. I appreciate her willingness to hear our community and I intend on writing a post dedicated to a few ideas I’ve had over the past week. See? It’s not all about complaining; we just didn’t know that Ms. Simone would be care to hear our ideas. Most comic book writers (and writers in general) are so narcisstic that they refuse to consider any opinions that might differ from their own take on a character, so it’s refreshing to see that constructive dissenting opinion might be valued and respected as seriously as “yes”-men-type fantalk.]
That’s not to say that everyone’s holding hands and singing in the comments section of any posts linked above. Do take some time to read through the discussion. The interaction between Gail and James is worth it.
February 1st, 2007 at 11:33 am
Lisa: You’re linking to the wrong post on Loren’s blog. This is the right one.
As for the uproar, there’s a whole lot of “wrong” on both sides of that debate, but Simone didn’t help matters any with some her wrongheaded, rose-colored glasses comments.
February 1st, 2007 at 11:35 am
Hey, Lisa
I think you’re linking to the wrong post on my blog. The one in which I address Jenn’s post and the one in which Gail participates is actually here:
http://lorenjavier.com/adventuresofagaygeek/?p=517
No, we’re not all singing kumbaya, but, I agree, it’s been a fascinating discussion and the kind I’ve been wanting to see. I also have to say that I appreciate Gail’s participating and giving out her e-mail for people to send her constructive criticism and other comments.
February 1st, 2007 at 11:40 am
Handbags at Dawn, that’s how we settle things ’round my way!
February 1st, 2007 at 11:46 am
Oops…I didn’t see that Guy had already given you the correct link.
I will say one thing about where I think Gail might have been coming from as I finally got to read every comment on every single post having to do with this subject (and, boy, am I tired!). I think the initial comments, Jenn’s included (and, I love Jenn) that implied that Gail’s writing was bad, lazy and showed a certain ineptitude. I’m not saying the way Gail went about responding at the beginning was the greatest way (and she even acknowledges that), but, I can imagine that creators get a lot of that and can put them at the defensive. I learned that John Ostrander’s initial cranky comment about Paperghost’s entry was because he’s gotten a lot of people challenging his writing from what he perceived as a hostile or unfair position. Unfortunately, it kind of broke down from there for some. I tried to steer the conversation back to the positive as much as possible on my blog. But, again, no…we’re still not all singing kumbaya.
February 1st, 2007 at 1:21 pm
My objection was never that Jenn didn’t like my work or my writing. I’ll be honest, you can’t be in this industry and cry over something so completely trivial.
It was a simple fact that I tried to state over and over again, that the tentpole of her entire argument, where she called the writing racially insensitive, was based absolutely on one comment Ryan says that she had no idea was a common as dirt phrase that Chinese people use regularly.
I don’t mind being blasted, that’s just how the internet goes. But being called racially insensitive over a reviewer’s lack of knowledge of the particular quote in question seemed very unfair.
The rest of the insults, eh, a couple days later and it’s all forgotten.
I have no grudge against Jenn or James. But I don’t feel they attacked with facts in hand, that’s all.
Best wishes,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 2:19 pm
…being called racially insensitive over a reviewer’s lack of knowledge of the particular quote in question seemed very unfair.
To be fair, for those who won’t bother to click through to the posts, it was an obscure Cantonese quote no American reader should be expected to be familiar with, which was central to Jenn’s point. If there had been a bit less arguing around that point, on both sides, maybe the situation wouldn’t have devolved the way it did, including your dismissing her mother’s opinion on the quote in favor of that of your Asian friend you heard it from.
Two things that really stood out throughout your many, many comments on the matter was your harping on Ryan Choi’s not being a stereotypical martial artist, as if ignoring one of the more prominent Asian stereotypes is somehow worthy of praise; and your frequent use of your Chinese friends and the predominantly positive feedback you’ve received from Asian readers to defend yourself against the criticism you were receiving from another Asian.
Like it or not, you’re one of the poster children for “diversity” at the Big Two, on many levels, and an outspoken personality at that. I’ll repeat my question to you from Loren’s blog, which seems to have gotten lost in your return to the thread:
So, I’m curious then… has any of this discussion — both heated and civil — changed your perception of your “weird little romp”? Realizing that to some people it represents something a lot bigger than you originally envisioned, do you now move forward with a stronger sense of the weight Ryan Choi bears on his shoulders?
February 1st, 2007 at 2:38 pm
” including your dismissing her mother’s opinion on the quote in favor of that of your Asian friend you heard it from.”
Sorry, Guy, but I call bullshit here. You must not have read the threads, as MANY people came forward to say they were familiar with the phrase and that it is not in fact ‘obscure’ at all. I myself heard it three times on separate trips to China in separate regions entirely. You can find it on the net, commonly (with slight variations) expressed by Chinese people. If Jenn’s mom (who expressed that no Cantonese would say this to a Westerner, basically) is correct, then why did so many come forward to say that wasn’t true? Why are variations of that phrase all over the net, on Chinese blogs?
The fact is, Jenn and her boyfriend, who is not Asian, chose to put the worst possible spin on the quote and then changed the nature of their complaint when presented with the fact that I didn’t make it up, but that I copied it directly from a very well educated speaker in China itself, and then heard it twice again on other trips. Chinese people actually LIVING IN CHINA came forward to say it was common and often used to put Western guests at ease, somewhat similarly to the situation presented in the comic.
I apologized to Jenn for the offense she took at the comic, but let’s please, for the love of god, quit rewriting history.
As to your question:
“So, I’m curious then… has any of this discussion — both heated and civil — changed your perception of your “weird little romp”? Realizing that to some people it represents something a lot bigger than you originally envisioned, do you now move forward with a stronger sense of the weight Ryan Choi bears on his shoulders? ”
Yes, and no. Characters that bear that weight almost universally suck. Then, when they fail, not because they’re gay or black or Indian, they are used as examples of why minority characters ‘don’t sell,’ or ‘aren’t interesting.’ No, it’s because they’re wholly agenda-driven, and thus, they SUCK.
So, no, because the idea was always to try to have a likable character that would express joy and wonder at the craziness of the DCU (as a NEW set of eyes), and for him to be a rounded guy from China, rather than a CHINESE hero exclusively, with the usual dragons on the costume, et cetera.
However, yes, in that I did want to avoid a lot of the painful stereotypes out there–that Chinese men aren’t sexual or sexually attractive (particularly cruel and untrue), that they’re passive, that they’re all masters of the martial arts, et cetera. Did we wholly succeed? Probably not, but I wouldn’t say I’ve ever gotten a character 100% PRECISELY as I’ve wanted him.
That said, I get a ton of email and thanks at conventions from Asians who love Ryan and love the book. Does that make Jenn’s remark invalid? Not at all, and I am sorry she took offense. I can’t apologize for the comment itself, because as others have stated much better than I have, there’s no racism IN the damn thing, it’s a real comment real Chinese nationals say, to build a little bit of understanding. Jenn’s of the opinion White America will take it as a slam on Chinese people for eating dogs.
That’s the sole bone of contention, really. I read her review and responded, and told her where I felt she’d hit the mark and where we could do more.
That’s about it.
Best wishes,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 2:43 pm
By the way, I make the same offer here I made on Jenn’s site repeatedly. If you feel there’s something untruthful about Ryan’s Asian history, heritage, habits, speech, whatever, or if you simply have a story or criticism you think might provide insight, feel free to write me at gailcbr@yahoo.com, and I will be delighted and grateful to listen. I’m not completely shooting in the dark, I have a pretty vast supply of resources, including some good friends, thank god, who save my life every month, but I can always use more and it would be much appreciated.
Very best wishes,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Finally, I want to make it really clear that I’m not calling Jenn’s mother (who sounds like a delightful person I’d love to meet) or Jenn a liar. I have no doubt of her sincerity or integrity. It’s simply that their experience is different. Jenn’s mother would never say that to a Westerner, but obviously plenty of other Chinese would, and do.
Best,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Gail, you seem to live in a very black and white world and are unable (or unwilling) to see beyond the offense you took at having an aspect of your work called racially insensitive to see the bigger picture.
My patience has reached its limit, though, so I’ll just wish you the best of luck in your future endeavors. Do me a favor, though: if you ever get assigned to tackle a Latin or African-American character, take a pass.
February 1st, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Nice response, Guy.
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 4:18 pm
Gail,
The Atom is a terriffically entertaining book, and Ryan is a fun, engaging character. Keep up the good work.
Rob
February 1st, 2007 at 4:44 pm
Thank you, Rob…I’ve been getting an explosion of emails saying that since this story went up on the Newsarama blog. I say, TELL OTHERS!
And Guy, I’m sorry, I take back my brusque response, and I apologize. I’m just really weary. I know you only mean well.
Best,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Actually, THIS Black man would more than welcome her wrting a Black character.
Just my opinion and it doesn’t necessarily need to subscribe to anyone else’s.
February 1st, 2007 at 5:16 pm
[cross-posted from One Diverse Comic Book Nation]
Gail, I truly do, and I apologize if at any time the points I was trying to make with you weren’t clear. I’m not nearly as level-headed as Loren, but I’m not looking to bait creators into public fights, either, so I’ve sincerely been disappointed to see you give in to the darker side of this debate all too frequently.
There is some value in this discussion, though, and I hope down the road, when the dust settles a bit, you’ll come back to it and be able to see it. You’re an influential person in this industry with an unfair amount of weight on your shoulders simply because you’re a woman. It’s a burden, but a potentially rewarding one if you’re up to the challenge.
That said, there’s no shame in just wanting to write some fun escapist comics and not have to deal with some of the uglier issues in our society. If that’s the road you choose, godspeed and more power to you.
Again, I wish you the best in your future endeavors, no matter what they may be. Even if it is a half-Latin / half-African American superhero from the Bronx who identifies more with the City he’s from than the cultures of his ancestors.
Most sincerely,
Guy
February 1st, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Thank you, Devon. I adore ya, I really do.
And a great many of the characters in Welcome to Tranquility are black and more are coming. They’re all just characters in my eyes, to be honest.
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 5:36 pm
For the record, I think we’re all talking it out, and we’re all hopeful it’ll lead to positive things.
Best,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 5:49 pm
And that’s all we can hope for, Gail!
Loren
February 1st, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Oh, this is awesome! My good friend, Jenn, is being mentioned on Newsarama, while Gail’s angle is being defended by my local comic shop guru/Lady Cop lover, Devon. I don’t think my worlds could possibly collide any further!
February 1st, 2007 at 7:19 pm
For what it’s worth, I think Gail Simone’s responses to all this have been evidence of someone who doesn’t see things in strictly “black&white” absolutes. She’s been incredibly open and honest and genuinely sensitive to everyone’s concerns.
I agree with her wholeheartedly about having one character carry the weight of everyone’s expectations. It’s going to be impossible to please 100% of the readers because there is no one big monolithic way to experience being ANY race or from ANY culture.
Here in Japan, there’s a great deal of homogenity, but it’d be foolish to assume because someone in Tokyo has one experience, someone in podunk parts of my prefecture has the same. There have been times when I’ve caught myself reading about a Japanese character and thinking, “That doesn’t seem like any Japanese I know,” then realizing I don’t know every Japanese.
I’ve definitely had my own well-meaning and intentioned assumptions challenged and overturned. Although there are definitely characters out there that are complete bullshit by anyone’s measure.
Yes, I know we’re actually discussing Chinese culture, which is a different thing… but I thought I’d offer an opinion from an ex-pat who’s immersed in a culture different from the one he grew up in.
To me, this is what diversity is all about- being able to disagree and discuss said disagreement and everyone learning from it. And for a creator to offer her email and actually solicit viewpoints… that’s simply outstanding. That’s class beyond class.
And it’s made me want to read “Atom,” at any rate. I never had that feeling before so I have to take my hat off to everyone involved, especially Gail for putting it out there and standing her ground while graciously accepting the valid and pointed viewpoints being tossed at her.
If I wore a hat, that is. Which I don’t.
February 1st, 2007 at 8:11 pm
You’re dear folks, and I love this thread.
I’d sorta lost hope on Jenn’s thread but I think I was premature, so that’s good, hopeful stuff.
Best and thank you!
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 9:06 pm
My complaint never involved whether Gail Simone made up a dog eating joke. The problem was the inclusion of a dog eating joke in The All New Atom #2. I find dog eating stereotypes against Asian Americans racist. In the same vein, I find fried chicken and watermelon jokes racist against African Americans.
While I can appreciate the difficulty inherent in writing a minority comic protagonist, I found The All New Atom to be a comic where Ryan Choi’s Asianness only emerged during racially negative moments, like his unfortunate dog eating quote, or the coded racial language involved in taunts from villains (take Giganta’s post-swallow quip about Chinese food in issue #4).
Gail, until quite recently, proved unwilling to consider the ramifications of that disheartening racialization. It’s like product branding; if you only see a new product in commercials you don’t like, you may be less likely to purchase said product. To me, Ryan Choi’s Asianness only emerged during some racially negative exchange, often where his identity was lampooned for the antagonists’ benefit.
I’d like to see that change in upcoming issues, but after this brouhaha, I’m honestly pessimistic. Gail’s preference for the perspectives of Asians from Asia – people removed from the American racial landscape that a Ryan Choi would operate in – may not allow Ryan Choi to develop any rudimentary American racial consciousness. Frankly, if he lampoons himself, why would anyone stop the Asian jokes?
Ask yourselves this – would you believe a JLA issue where this happens?
Bruce Wayne – Thank you for accompanying me to dinner, Mr. Pierce. How are you enjoying the Watchtower?
Jefferson Pierce – Not bad at all. You all have some excellent technology here…. what are we having?
Bruce Wayne – Oh, Jefferson, I wanted you to feel at home. It’s pig feet, fried chicken, ribs, and chitlins!
Jefferson Pierce – ….
Bruce Wayne – Isn’t this soul food to your liking?
Jefferson Pierce – Bruce, I’m Black. We eat all parts of the pig, from the roota to da toota! I’m chillin’ homey. Pass da hot sauce!
Bruce Wayne – Yes … well …
Jefferson Pierce – Yo B-Money, where da White women at?
You may find the last part kinda excessive, but after the dog eating reference in The All New Atom #2, the blonde love interest’s Black friend says, “‘Manda, I swear, if you’re planning on serving yourself to him with the fortune cookies…”. The point is that the entire exchange grounds Ryan Choi’s Asian heritage in the most stereotypical surface-level pop culture references, and that those references aren’t always kosher.
It’s cool that Gail’s so willing to hear reader feedback, and my main suggestion would be to make Ryan Choi’s heritage matter to him if it should matter at all to the reader.
February 1st, 2007 at 9:35 pm
What’s wrong with addressing the perspective of an Asian from Asia? I mean, sure, it’d be great to have more Asian-American perspectives as well, but it’s not like the Asian-from-Asia viewpoint is particularly over-saturating superhero comics as it is.
February 1st, 2007 at 9:37 pm
James, I mean no offense here, but I have realized you really don’t need me to provide my side of the debate, as you keep making it up without me.
Everyone else is making an effort, so I’m happy to continue speaking to those people, though disagree we might.
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 9:53 pm
Thanks, Melissa. Not to keep this going, but Ryan is NOT Asian-American, so the perspective is a little different.
Jenn has gone over this at her blog, it’s not really anything we disagree on.
Her point as I understand it is that uninformed Americans, not knowing the meaning or context of the quote, will take it to mean Asians eat dogs and trash, which will in turn come back in the form of hurtful comments to Asian Americans.
I’ve discussed my side of this to regal excess…
but I maintain that the meaning of that quote is quite the opposite–that it’s about building some understanding, at least when said by a Chinese individual to a Westerner. But I think it’s possible for both of us to be correct, on reflection, and so I respectfully disagree, but completely understand that she’s sincere, and obviously more knowledgeable about the Asian American experience than I could be if I lived to be a thousand.
We’re talkin’ on it. I’m convinced we’ll work it out.
Best,
Gail
February 1st, 2007 at 11:45 pm
But I think it’s possible for both of us to be correct, on reflection, and so I respectfully disagree, but completely understand that she’s sincere, and obviously more knowledgeable about the Asian American experience than I could be if I lived to be a thousand.
Aaaaannd…cut! That’s a wrap. Great work, everybody.
February 2nd, 2007 at 1:41 am
“Aaaaannd…cut! That’s a wrap. Great work, everybody.”
When is the party?
February 2nd, 2007 at 9:24 am
Saturday, Feb 24th, 10pm-Until @ Slate. Stay tuned…
February 2nd, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I have read all these posts on reappropriate, newsarama, and diverse comic nation, and I haven’t commented yet. But I have to say, that Gail’s most vocal critics have continually used intellectually dishonest debate tactics to make their points and avoided any serious counterpoint by slandering her with completely fabricated nonsense. Just to use one obvious example, James refers multiple times to the “dog eating joke” or “dog eating reference” in The All-New Atom #2. Well, there is no reference to dog eating joke in that comic book.
February 3rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm
The All New Atom #2, page 7, panel 5
Caption: “Does the observer affect the flavor, I wonder?”
Panda: “You don’t like it?”
Ryan: “I’m Cantonese, Panda. We have a saying: “Cantonese eat everything that flies except airplane, and everything with four legs except table.” (emphasis added) I’ll adjust. You got a pen, by the way?”
That was the exchange in question, Michael. I don’t believe anyone in this debate has been dishonest. I do believe some of us are concerned with eliminating unneeded racial insensitivity from comics. Enjoy your day.
February 4th, 2007 at 12:59 pm
I’ve never read the Atom, nor for that matter, anything by Gail Simone, but I have now slogged through most of these posts on the various blogs. Gail comes through as being very patient (I cannot understand why she continues with these discussions), and while the critics have some points (for example, I didn’t ever see it explained why Ryan translated the quote in pidgin English) – they mostly come across as overly-combative.
For example, in James’ post above, he creates a scenario that doesn’t appear in any book to use as evidence against Gail’s writing. Is this supposed to bolster his argument, that he can write a racially insensitive passage of dialogue?
It’s also worth point out that Michael states, “James refers multiple times to the “dog eating joke” or “dog eating reference” in The All-New Atom #2. Well, there is no reference to dog eating joke in that comic book.” (which James does in post #22). James responds in post #30 with a quote that does not involve eating a dog.
Sure, maybe eating a dog can be assumed (since it’s about eating everything), but then wouldn’t it also be a cow eating joke? What this exchange actually reveals is people twisting words around to attempt to make their argument more compelling.