There’s a meme going around various Marvel writers’ messageboards, and this thread from the Bendis Board exemplifies it:
“I really want to like DCU books. I really do. But… I have no idea where to start. Half the stuff I’ve read has just been okay, and most of the stuff I like is really old. I’m looking for some good JLU stories, and some good Flash (Wally West) stuff, but I don’t know where to look. I also wouldn’t mind starting some DC monthlies (other than Detective), but I don’t know whats good. I can’t really hop on 52 this late in the game, so what else should I be looking at?”
“I gave up on them to save money. I don’t regret it for a second.”
“Of the current crop of DC titles, Checkmate, Manhunter (which will be gone in a few issues sadly), Green Arrow, Wonder Woman (when it comes out), JLA, and JSA (but just barely) are pretty much the only books worth reading in my opinion.”
“It’s universally awful. Save yourself the aggravation and don’t bother.”
Now, the thread is also full of people recommending books - mostly non-continuity ones, like All-Star Superman and Justice, although JSA and JLA get some shout-outs - but for anyone who’s paying attention to the boards, it’s becoming more and more clear that DC have a PR problem for their mainstream books amongst Marvel fans…
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:17 am
How the hell can that first person not find good Wally West stories that aren’t “Really old.”
Flash was most consistantly good superhero book for around ten years between 93 and 05 or so.
I think in the end, the audience for Marvel books and the audience for DC books are splitting more so than they’ve been in years.
The ironic part, is that I get my Marvel fix from DC.
That is, the 80s style of Marvel lives on a whole lot more in DC than it does in Marvel.
I think I actually frustrate a lot of pre-crisis DC fans too, because I want very different things from my comics than they do.
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 am
That dude shoud read the Born to Run and Return to Barry Allen trades at least. And Mark Waid should read them, to remember a time when his stories weren’t about justifying stuff he liked when he was a kid.
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:32 am
Gosh, I’m a DC fan, and I feel the same way about Marvel! Go figure!
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:45 am
Is this a red state blue state thing?
Looking at my buying habits I am no longer a Marvel Fan.
This comes from BendisBoard, ‘Nuff Said!
January 22nd, 2007 at 9:50 am
What’s your obsession with the Bendis Board?
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:01 am
It’s good marketing. When the comics market was contracting, the important thing was to shore up the industry as a whole - so the emphasis was more on how comics in general were better than ever, attracting great people, and so on.
Now things are on the up, Marvel and DC can both work on improving their individual brand images, and stressing their points of difference from the competition. Joe Q does this a lot in his Joe Friday chats, it’s hardly surprising Marvel fans follow his cues. DC have been less aggressive about pushing their stylistic differences vis-a-vis Marvel, which makes me wonder if their marketing people have much idea of what the DC brand stands for.
So Marvel have been allowed to define the DCU negatively - boring old characters, aloof heroes you can’t identify with, lacking in conflict and tragedy etc.
DC needs to find some positive brand values or it’ll keep getting this treatment.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:03 am
“but for anyone who’s paying attention to the boards, it’s becoming more and more clear that DC have a PR problem for their mainstream books amongst Marvel fans…”
Sorry, but DC could hand out 100 dollar bills with their books and most zombies would still rip it. That zebulon poster is a prime example of this. These aren’t rational people as their entire self-worth is apparently tied into a corporation.
The truly great DC books don’t sell. So to but it bluntly, everyone can go f’ck themselves.
The ones that aren’t living in the past, aren’t re-telling the same stories are the ones no one is buying. It’s been that way for 20 years now.
It’s true for Marvel too. Compare how many people buy Wolverine: Origins compared to Runaways.
But, at least I can read good stories about Superman (the main Superman title, Superman Confidential, All-Star Superman) and Batman (Detective and Batman) still. Those are five critically acclaimed and commercially sucessful books.
I haven’t read a good Spider-Man story in a long, long time.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:08 am
Graeme:
You have two items today discussing DC’s “PR problem” and I’m a tad bewildered. What PR problem? And as others are sure to point out, if there is a problem, is the Bendis board the best supporting evidence?
I think for either of the major two to have a genuine PR problem, the EIC would have to commit actual murder.
(BTW, I do not think you’re obsessed with the Bendis Board–Byrne or Millar boards will always be your first loves.
)
I’m not disagreeing with you, I respect your knowledge and perspective as an industry pundit, but I’m not sensing the PR problem that you clearly see.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:28 am
Tim -
I don’t think that it’s a big PR problem (DC’s largest one right now is probably the rushed and vague press release about Stephanie Fierman’s departure from her position but not the company, and all the gossip that that’s released), but there definitely seems to be a surge of the mainstream superhero fanbase complaining that DC’s superhero books are too hard to understand/just plain bad right now, and it strikes me as something to pay attention to.
Probably the largest two online communities for superhero comic book fans, outside of Newsarama, are the Bendis Board and Millarworld - Both of which are, fairly obviously, going to be Marvel-biased but both of them have run “I don’t get DC”/”Well, that’s because they suck” threads recently (The Millarworld one is here). When you then go to somewhere like ComicBloc, which is about as DC friendly a message board as you can get, and see that fans there are complaining that DC doesn’t listen to them, then you’re left with a significant portion of the audible audience complaining about your product. Considering that we’re coming up on a year after One Year Later, and the fact that that was meant to be the big chance for new fans to jump ONTO the books, it’s not a good sign, and there’s kind of an appearance that, by changing your books, you haven’t changed the non-reader’s preconceptions about them, but you have alienated your core audience.
Yeah, a lot of this can be attributed to the always-present fan bitching, but it’s the fact that this griping seems to have become more noticable this past couple of weeks that’s what’s interesting me. Ehhh, maybe I’m seeing something that isn’t there, though.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:29 am
See, I’m in the same boat as the poster referenced really. I just got back into comics for the first time in over ten years thanks to this whole Marvel Civil War thing. Back in the days of fierce rivalry between DC and Marvel, I was squarely in the Marvel camp out of familiarity.
Now, I just want to read good comics with excellent story and beautiful illustrations. I’ve picked up a few DCU titles off the racks (Superman and Batman mostly), but I haven’t found anything I really dug. I just recently read the first five issues of 52 online, and I plan on buying the trades of that. But ongoing titles to add to my pull list? Right now, I’m at kind of a loss. The various “Crises” and events have me really confused about what the best books are to pick up as a new reader. (And, yes, I’m sure if I weren’t so familiar with Marvel I would likely feel the same way about them with all the Civil War tie-ins and event transitions.)
I’m planning on checking out All-Star Superman, JLA, and JSA based on the recommendations from the linked thread. Other suggestions from DC folks would be most welcome as well.
Is the Green Lantern still around? Does he (they?) have an on-going? I haven’t seen anything in the local comic shop.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:56 am
Green Lantern’s still going. And Checkmate is definitely worth your time and money.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:58 am
The very things that the comicbloc people complain about are the exact opposite of what the millar/bendis boarders would complain about, though.
If you go too far to please one, you’d alienate the other, and so on. DC has something of a middle ground, then, which is probably the best way to go anyway.
January 22nd, 2007 at 10:59 am
Graeme, thanks for clarifying and connecting some dots that I was overlooking/forgetting. Witin that context, I better understand your larger point.
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:01 am
Interesting.
I currently find 80% of Marvel’s output to be pretty unreadable and spent most of my weekend going through all the recent DC books I’m planning to reread. It’s almost trendy to point out the “go-to” quality DC books (All Star SUpes, Manhunter, et al) when there are tons of “regular” ones that are great. All Star is obviously fantastic, but Busiek is writing what is easily one of the best in continuity Superman stories ever. Aquaman, while late as hell, is a great title, as is Green Lantern. And don’t get me started on Supergirl & The Legion Of Superheroes or Teen Titans. I think there are plenty of DC monthlies of exceptional quality. And I think “PR” is pretty meaningless in this industry. People buy what they always have.
January 22nd, 2007 at 11:20 am
Consider the source on this. Try going to a DC Forum to see reactions from people who actually liked DC to begin with. It’s not all positive, but it’s much more positive than it is negative.
January 22nd, 2007 at 1:15 pm
“It’s not all positive, but it’s much more positive than it is negative.”
And, most of those compaints are from posters who are upset that it isn’t 1985 - 1992 anymore. Ironically, the ones crying about accepting change are usually the ones that refuse any.
Benjamin is right, the main Superman title is one of the best in-continuity Superman titles ever. Dini’s Detective is fantastic, so is Morrison’s Batman, Wonder Woman (when it comes out), Green Lantern, Superman/Batman, Teen Titans, Checkmate, etc., are all good titles. Robin and Catwoman have been unexpected gems.
Uncle Sam & the Freedom Fighters is one of the best books not being read by people (have you read the series Graeme?).
Marvel did a fantastic job with Civil War. All across the board, sales have gone up on the never-ending tie ins. Yet, despite that, they managed to beat DC by only 4%.
4%
If DC had managed to get their books out when they were supposed to come out, they easily could have made up the difference.
I would say lateness is DC’s problem, not PR.
January 22nd, 2007 at 1:17 pm
BTW, the 4% is based on the yearly numbers.
January 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pm
“Probably the largest two online communities for superhero comic book fans, outside of Newsarama, are the Bendis Board and Millarworld”
Seriously? I don’t know about that. Comic Book Resources seems like the biggest board to me. Millarworld is substantial, but other boards like Comicbloc and Newsarama’s talkbacks seem to be of comparable size. And as for the Bendis Board… well, I wouldn’t be aware of it at all if this blog didn’t keep linking to it.
There are probably a lot of different message boards out there that discuss comics, with larger memberships than any of us realize.
January 22nd, 2007 at 2:22 pm
I love Busieks Superman at the moment….Pacheco can do no wrong in my eyes as well….and for my money I’m absolutely crazy about the Green Lantern Corp. book…Gleason is just tops and I love the bizarre space stuff that is the norm in that book…the Dominator was just brutal in that last issue…other than that I dunno if there’s something I really LOVE…but my tastes have been changing…I’ve dropped pretty much all Marvel except for Runaways…
January 22nd, 2007 at 3:40 pm
I find as much of Marvel’s line unreadable as I do DC’s. Both companies put out some pretty darn good books - Astonishing X-Men, All-Star Superman, Runaways, Detective Comics. Where I find a huge gap is outside the superhero market - Marvel has NOTHING to compete with Vertigo
January 22nd, 2007 at 4:03 pm
Wow, Marvel fans hating DC. I’ve never seen that before!
January 22nd, 2007 at 4:46 pm
“Wow, Marvel fans hating DC. I’ve never seen that before!”
*big laugh*
There are also zombies out there that pretend they are DC fans and/or impartial fans for the sole purpose of bashing DC.
What I don’t understand is why quotes from a low-selling DC title (Green Arrow) on a Marvel biased board is considered any type of indication of what the common DC reader likes?
January 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pm
I would say any upswing in the number of “what’s DC doing wrong?” threads at this point is likely the outgrowth of all the various ‘2006 in review’ articles that have been written as of late. Many of said articles focusing on 52 and the perceived failure (or at least underperformance) of One Year Later. Add to that the just announced cancellation of 2 ongoing titles and you’re bound to see fans asking “what’s going wrong”. Though most don’t have much in the way of practical answers beyond “(insert company) isn’t catering to me!!”.
I don’t believe DC has a PR problem so much as the big 2 have a “how do we expand our audience” problem. Looking at the current trends if a title isn’t a big event (or related tie-in) or a perceived “sure-thing” (popular creators + popular character) it just doesn’t seem to go over very well. This is the case for both publishers, it’s just more noticeable at DC at present with Civil War still being pasted over alot of books.
January 29th, 2007 at 1:07 am
c’mon .. the Bendis Board? seriously???
Maybe you couldn’t you get registered for the message board at http://www.ihatedc.com.. maybe next time. I’m sure their comments would be as balanced as the Bendis boards.
Oh and Zebulon - worst marvel zombie….ever.
The guy got embarassed on a thread stating that Marvel invented super powered villains. (late to that party by 20 years Zebulon) or the time that he posted that the suicide squad was a rip off of the Freedom Force.. lol
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