Sometimes, the line is just unclear. For example, I’ve never been a fan of Stephanie Brown, but I do think she was killed in a fairly misogynist way (roping in Leslie Thompkins was just stupid icing on the stupid cake). However, I don’t see Batman’s failure to put her suit in the bat-cave as an act of misogyny. And maybe my bias against Stephanie feeds that (although I didn’t care that she had become Robin, because, you guessed it, I don’t like Robin as a concept either), but maybe it could be because I think Batman’s moved past the whole suit thing. I don’t even know if Jason Todd’s suit is in the Bat-Cave any more. He might be concerned that’s asking for resurrection trouble.

In any event, women don’t have near the same amount of privilege as men do, so I don’t quite agree with Dorian’s assessment, but I do agree with Loren’s that probably no one outside of Dave Sim sits around and thinks, “Gee, I hate women. How can my work put them in their place?” I agree with them both that sometimes it’s hard to figure out what’s sexist/misogynist or not, and that sometimes, they who go looking for it will find it everywhere, if you know what I mean.

But that doesn’t mean talking about it should stop. People should be forced to think about issues and how something might affect someone differently. I believe it will result in a more diverse audience, which means eventually more diverse and interesting comics.

Yeah, that would be an area that needs to be improved, I agree. Which is why I fully support all slams against Greg Land.

I think Stephanie Brown became the focus of a lot of fans. And I think some of the criticism is a case of fans cheering for a specific character is true. I understand how Dorian can think it’s entitlement being disguised as feminism.

But then you look at how she died - and you notice that between War Games and Infinite Crisis DC cleared out, or killed off, or made evil or killed every single female character in Gotham.

Except one - Onyx. She hasn’t been specifically killed off, but she was beat up and left bleeding on her knees to show how tough and skilled the bad guy is in “Under the Hood.”

Which was written by Judd Winick, who also took the female Dr. Light and had her beaten up and put in the hospital, and then attacked again and left lying on the ground in the Green Arrow series, once again to show how tough the bad guy is.

If you point to any one of these things, and call it misogyny, people can dismiss it as sloppy writing or the quirk of one particular guy, or the demands of the storyline - but put it together and it’s part of a pattern.

So yeah - Spoiler is getting a lot of attention because she was a fan favorite. But her death and the subsequent near-erasure of her character is attributable to misogyny, and why not fight that by starting with your favorite character?

Ariella — I don’t think the “I’m going to get attacked for this” is a comment on feminism so much as fandom. I’ve seen the same phrases frame criticisms of popular writers. I mean, seriously, try and go against the grain in fandom. It causes a flamewar.

I don’t see a presumption of authority so much as a “I know there are genuine concerns, but I’m having trouble telling what they are because I know fandom and I know what comic fans are like.”

It’s a matter of sifting through the BS, and its hard in comics fandom.

Ariella — I think the positioning in this case is more important than the phrasing. He’s not complaining about radical feminists. He’s complaining about hardcore fans who will twist any argument to support their position. He’s using the exact same language I’m inclined to use when defending Kyle Rayner in a room full of disgruntled Hal Jordan fans.