One thing I haven’t really done since starting to blog here at Newsarama is blog what happens at Newsarama… but this discussion about Civil War seemed worth sharing:
“Tony starts to do what he feels is right to make it go as quickly as possible. Is he a bad guy? Nah, he even helps out the other side still when lives are in danger. Is that the act of a Nazi? Would Hitler have helped out the Jews if they were about to be blown up in a bunker he created? What people like Tony, Reed, and Carol do is uphold the law. They see that super heroes need to be registered or else more incidents like Stamford will occur. So they areest people and put them in the one place that can hold them all: the negative zone. Yeah, it would suck to be in that prison. Tony knows this. He designed it that way. He wants people to agree to register ASAP, and that means they stay in a pretty crappy environment. Is it harsh? Yes, but I reckon it will also be effective. While his means are questionable, his ends are just: to have super heroes registered so that another small town doesn’t blow up.”
“It’s more productive and more honest to debate whether or not the values Tony is defending are actually Tony’s values. You say he is a hero who upholds the law. I tend to agree. But the question then becomes: which does he find more important, the letter of the law, or rights guaranteed constitutionally? If you violate or outright ignore a citizen’s rights to due process, are you still following the law? Or… Are you following the law as you interpet it? …Lemme just ask this: if a captured Captain America refuses to sign under threat and duress, and Tony and Reed toss him into the cosmic hoosgow with no trial and no charges and no representation, will people still think they are upholding the law as they always have?”
“Are those people imprisoned being denied a trial? This is a good point because it’s something I hadn’t thought about. I don’t know that Marvel has mentioned either way if they’re being denied a trial or not. If they are, then I certainly have bigger problems with Tony than I thought I had. Making it a crappy place to be so that they change their minds mor equickly to register is one thing….but everyone deserves a trial, no matter what the case.”
“I believe Tony outright says in Spider-Man that the people are denied trail.”
“I think one of the big problems is they’re trying to draw too many parallels to real life. Clearly the heroes don’t get trials because the United States currently has hundreds of people being held without charges or trials. Unfortunately, while you can see why some people in the United States are for this (I’m not one of them, but I can understand where they’re coming from), there’s no reason for Tony and Co. to treat Cap and Co. the same way. The people who are being imprisoned are heroes, out to help protest others, and Tony knows that. Sure, there could be another Stamford, but unlike the detainees in Gitmo, the heroes aren’t allegedly plotting mass murder in terrorist attacks against the United States. The analogy just isn’t working. It’s hard to imagine not registering would be anything other than a misdemeanor (at least on first offense), not something resulting in life imprisonment without right to a trial.”
” And I really think that is the point where Civil War should have started, with the revelation that non-registered heroes were being treated as non-entities. Heroes like Cap should have gone along with the law, while still trying to get it repealed legally, until they found out the extent Tony was willing to go in its enforcement. That is where the schism should have started, not with the simple passing of the bill.”
“Everyone’s a fascist. Millar’s a Communist Atheist who sacrifices children to his pagan sun god. I’m boycotting Civil War until the next issue comes out. P.S. Fascism.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 12:54 pm
Wow, this series has actually gotten people thinking about the issues involved. Imagineer that!
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:14 pm
I just wonder if this story would’ve been better using original characters instead of forcing Marvel characters into roles that contradict decades of behavior
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:30 pm
I am so glad that SOMEONE actually took the time to look at the story and analyze Civil War based on its success relative to its intent instead of just complaining about the windo dressing. I think you make a veyr, very good point Graeme.
Most of the complaints about the book center around the characters and I call bull on all of this “contradict decades of behavior” stuff. Are they heroic? Not particularly, but does it jibe with who they are as characters? Absolutely. Reed obsesses and overlooks details like the human factor in pursuit of his goal. Tony wants to do what is right but at the end of the day he will make compromises and do what he has to.
I deny every single claim of Reed or Tony being out of character. All I see is people wishing they looked more heroic and the fact that heroes don’t always look like heroes is a large part of the story. The “contradicts” thing is a very, very weak argument based mostly on fanboy love. (no offense Will, you were just the one who mentioned it)
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:34 pm
I think Tony Stark is behaving completely in character with the Iron Man I grew up with- a guy who would be so bullheaded as to go through his friends and compatriots to accomplish what he felt was right.
Reed Richards is more troubling, but luckily I never, ever liked the FF, and I’m sure Dwayne McDuffie will find a way to untie this particular knot.
October 23rd, 2006 at 1:43 pm
I’d like someone to explain to me how in the world Reed Richards would ever resort to ILLEGAL cloning. How can you say that’s consistant with his character? It’s something that Doctor Doom would do, not Reed Richards.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:30 pm
What I want to know is when this idea that Reed Richards is obsessive and “overlooks…the human factor” came into being, because I’ve been reading FF comics for about thirty years, and believe me that’s new. So is it just anti-intellectualism, or what? What’s the idea here, that Reed “thinks too much” to be a good hero? Or that you just can’t trust those damn bloodless scientists?
Chilling. Maybe that doesn’t contradict the last year or so of FF, but it contradicts everything else. And not to be a bastard, but that isn’t just my opinion: I have the comics right here, you see, so I can prove it. These arguments of “realism” are themselves just retcons, since it’s obvious that brand-new character bits have been invented for plot purposes, and then passed off as always having been there. But this is very annoying to longtime fans! So please, Ian: you may prefer the new Reed Richards (I don’t), but kindly don’t tell me it’s the same old Reed Richards, because it isn’t.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:42 pm
Why is it automatically assumed that making sure all the super-heroes are registered will actually prevent another Stamford-like disaster?
After all, in the real world, fully-trained and -registered government agents commit all manner of mayhem on a regular basis, usually by accident, sometimes intentionally. And the only difference being “registered” makes is that they are insulated from being held responsible for the death and destruction they’ve caused, so long as they “followed procedure.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:56 pm
“Oops! Nitro (or whoever) has spotted us!”
“Thank God we’re registered!”
Couldn’t agree more. More sloppy reasoning-from-authority out of the Millarverse.