My favorite quote:

“Excuse me, I’m going to go back and reread a few of the Lewis/Woods(es!) issues of ROBIN until I can stop wanting to install a flamethrower in my vagina.”

While we are on subtext – there’s alot of hate being aimed generally towards the male in general in much of those comments.
Which while I’m sure is great and necessary given the pretty ludicrous depictions girls have to watch being made of their gender more than any other demographic in comics

But it don’t help you do anything about it. I have degree in art history, I wrote part of my MA thesis on signifiers in visual seuential art media and I’d love to engage with some of these discussions – but not with all that hate floating around cause I’ve already been reduced to the TLA of a WHM by that last girl and dismissed with as little thought as Wizard dismisses the purpose of the female form in comics.

Long as the opp engages with the same marketing department rhetoric as the pro its gonna be very had to get your voices heard.

Well, Kevin Maguire gave some pretty good advice, but then again, Kevin Maguire usually doesn’t do cheesecake-for-cheesecake’s sake. And Adam Hughes at least tried to underscore the absurdity of the topic (but as much as he does cheesecake, he often does it in a tongue-in-cheek manner), and there are some who would do well to heed his “bigger isn’t always better” advice. Like, for instance, Jim Balent.
I remember when that Balent “How to Draw” thing appeared in Wizard years ago. It looked terrible then, it looks worse now. The face he draws is very slightly cross-eyed.
There aren’t words to describe the irony of Michael “Supergirl” Turner talking about sex appeal.

PyD said: “I’d love to engage with some of these discussions – but not with all that hate floating around cause I’ve already been reduced to the TLA of a WHM by that last girl and dismissed with as little thought as Wizard dismisses the purpose of the female form in comics.”

Newsflash! It’s not about you. As long as you represent yourself as thinking that everything must be about you and for you then people are entitled to interpret that attitude as you voluntarily representing yourself as part of the problem because the problem is white males (a minority of the world’s population) thinking and acting as if everything has to be about and for them all the time.

If you can’t understand that then you’re part of the problem and not part of any useful solution.

I haven’t read the collected Drawing Board books that Wizard put out, do they include the Terry Moore instruction on how to draw more realistic women? (Obviously that’s against the point that was being made in the original discussion, though.)

Newsflash! It’s not about you. As long as you represent yourself as thinking that everything must be about you and for you then people are entitled to interpret that attitude as you voluntarily representing yourself as part of the problem because the problem is white males (a minority of the world’s population) thinking and acting as if everything has to be about and for them all the time.

If you can’t understand that then you’re part of the problem and not part of any useful solution.

You’re being disingenuous. This isn’t directly related to this article, but PyD was talking about something that does happen, and that’s the villainization of the priviliged instead of the villainization of the system that provides the privilege.

I do a decent amount of debates on race, both in comics (Young Avengers is particularly bothersome) and without (i.e., real life). I’ve seen people that I otherwise agree with drop down to the level of “Well, if white people/men/women didnn’t do X, then…” That isn’t how it works. That’s insulting to white people/men/women and it just makes the system look bad.

In life, word choice is vital, particularly when you’re dealing with a touchy subject. Sex and race are part of the top four touchiest, beat out only sometimes by religion and politics. Here’s a hypothetical. Let’s assume that you’re Catholic and I’m not. If the Pope were to say something that I didn’t like, and I were to go, “Oh, isn’t that just typical of Catholics?” you’d rightly take offense. That’s an ad hominem (kind of), not a genuine argument. It’s insulting, and since you identify as part of the Catholic whole, you are going to feel insulted.

It’s similar to when people have said to me, “Well, I didn’t hold slaves, why are you blaming white people today for it?” It’s what happens when you blame the person instead of the problem. It’s important to pick your words so that they have the most effect, and the internet is pretty conducive to not doing that.

I don’t like the Young Avengers in no small part because of how Patriot was portrayed. I could express this as “Isn’t this just typical, white people always gotta keep a brother down,” which would be easy, or I could explain exactly what I’m feeling and get my point across clearly. The latter takes work, and the internet tends to lead to the former.

Note that I say tends here. There are plenty of people who are doing exactly what I’m talking about, it’s just that vitriol leads to drama leads to page views. Nobody cares about the guys who go “Civil War #4 was weak because of X, Y, and Z.” The guys who go, “Civil War was stupid and you guys are retarded sheeple for liking it” get double digit comment threads.

Like I say, this isn’t directly related to Lisa’s post, but feeling offended/hurt/worried/whatever when you see someone say something on a gender/race/political issue doesn’t always mean that you’re part of the problem, and it’s wrong to believe that. Sometimes people say things in the heat of the moment that sound like absolute crap. I’ve done it before myself, I’m not innocent.

It isn’t about believing that things are always about you, it’s about your personal reading of a post, or blog, or e-mail, or whatever and how that affects you. “(Variable-Man) Comic #1429 pissed me off because of (Variable-Girl)’s (variable-action) and I want to kick someone in the nuts so hard!” is totally different than how these kinds of things should be expressed. That whole snark/rarr thing only gets you so far. It doesn’t tend to get you to reasoned debate. It’s just vitriol.

Basically, what I’m saying is that PyD had an intelligent response. He’s experienced in the issue at hand (I’m assuming, I’m an English major, I don’t know nothin’ bout no fancy art degrees), and he wants to cmment, but he feels threatened to do so because of the subtext he’s getting out of these comments. He’s wondering something like, “If i respond, will they even listen or will they write me off?”

Whether or not I agree with him is beside the point because I understand how he feels. When the Storm/Panther wedding was announced, I had someone say to me, in my own comic shop, “Man, why is Marvel getting those two together, anyway? It’s just because they’re black.”

I wanted to ask him to name one other black couple in Marvel Comics, but the chorus of “Yeah dude” from the other folks in there left me feeling like crap and threatened. How can I discourse with these guys if they aren’t willing to listen to what I have to say?

There are people out there who take every threat to the status quo personally. Those people are soft and not worthy of attention. They won’t ever change. PyD is at least willing to talk about the problem… and your response to him is “Well, shut up, you shouldn’t feel threatened, we didn’t want you, anyway.” That’s out of line and it makes you just as bad as the guys who close their eyes and ears whenever someone mentions “oversized breasts are stupid-looking.” That’s garbage, dude. It’s weak.

For the record and/or your amusement, I’m a black male, 22 years old, and I work in games journalism.

(I’m kind of surprised that no one’s remarked that Adam Hughes and Kevin Maguire both spent a good bit of time drawing for Penthouse Comix back in the day. I’m not saying that that is a black spot on their records, I just think it’s kind of funny.)

Sadly, this is nothing new. I’ve seen it in “how to draw comic books” books all the time. “Don’t muscle-up the women. Give them smooth, slim lines. Make every pose is sexy. THEIR LIPS, ARE YOU MAKING THEIR LIPS GLOSSY ENOUGH? YOU’RE NOT, MAKE THEM FULLER, POUTIER, OH GOD FUMBLING WITH MY PANTS ALONE IN THE BASEMENT AGAIN.”

But this garbage about why they’re not exploiting women and being sexist that I see spewed all the time is the kicker on the offense

Yeah. I respect an artist who flat out admits they’re creating cheesecakeish pseudo-porn geared towards men-only than anyone who yammers on about how “strong” their female characters are because they drew a dainty picture of one of them punching someone while wearing a bikini.

Why shouldn’t we expect women to examine things from a woman’s perspective? The fact that some of them don’t appreciate the sexism in comics is to be expected. Frankly, some comic artists and companies just publish caricatures of women. Greg Land is infamous for drawing women with “porn face” and not being able to draw female characters with consistency or logic. For instance, in Ultimate Fantastic Four, Sue and Johnny Storm’s mother is drawn to look as if she were the same age as her daughter. There are plenty of hot women in their 40s but Land can’t draw anything but sex-kittens.

No. I was and am wholly sincere.

I’m truly sorry to hear that, then.

The rest of your comment is tl;dr except for the part where you pretend to quote me while actually typing a lie of your own invention.

Yes, this is exactly what happened. I was hoping no one would notice, but–

Oh, wait, that isn’t what happened. Man, that was gonna be embarassing if I’d admitted wrong-doing where there was none!

Why have you made up a lie and inserted it quotations as if I said it? You must know everyone can read my previous comment (7.) and see that I didn’t say what you claim. You invented a straw woman to attack because you couldn’t deal with what I actually said.

I didn’t make up a lie. I paraphrased what you said into simpler words. Was your intent not to say “Screw you, we don’t need you anyway?” PyD (and I hate to speak for the poster here and above) basically says (look out, i’m paraphrasing here again!), “Hey, I would love to discuss this with these people, but I feel a lot of hostility and dismissiveness going on!”

How is (direct quote here!) “If you can’t understand that then you’re part of the problem and not part of any useful solution” an appropriate answer to his concerns? how is it anything but a (paraphrase!) “screw you, we don’t want you here?” It’s the very same dismissiveness that he was talking about!

I didn’t invent a straw anything. I took your post on face value and responded to it. Quotation marks do not always mean that I am using a direct quote. You can use them for everything from song titles, to titles of poems, to even hypothetical phrasings.

Basically, what I’m saying is, “You aren’t as right about this as you think you are.”

There are no straw men, women, or children here. Not even a straw fetus. Your post is up there for everyone to see, as you mention here–

I’m sorry. Hang on.

(Direct quote) “You must know everyone can read my previous comment (7.) and see that I didn’t say what you claim.”

Yes. I know this. I am not so stupid as to try and alter what you said and hope that no one notices. I’m really kind of offended that you think I’m that brand new. If I misrepresented what you said, I’m 100% certain that one of the other posters would call me on it. I stand by my assertion that your response to PyD was way out of line. it was a crap response and you pretty much proved my point (and PyD’s point, come to think) with this latest post of yours.

Here. Let’s use the current topic at hand.

Poster: “The way these guys are telling people to draw women is reprehensible. I can’t stand it. What’s the deal with it?”
Possible response: “Newsflash! It’s not about you. As long as you represent yourself as thinking that everything must be about you and for you then people are entitled to interpret that attitude as you voluntarily representing yourself as part of the problem because the problem is white females (a minority of the world’s population) thinking and acting as if everything has to be about and for them all the time.”

Holy crap, do you see how wrong this is? Whatever point you may have had was dunked in a big fat vat of crap. What would you do if someone said that to you when you mention something you care about? I know that my first instinct would be to give them the f word, followed by the word (hypothetical quotes) “you,” followed by perhaps the word (hypothetical quotes again here, no one has said this yet but may later on) “jerk.”

Thanks for the (danger, quotation marks in which I expand the ‘tl;dr’ construct) “too long, didn’t read” remark, by the way. That’s a sure sign of a person who is ready to entertain the fact that his or her beliefs may not be 100%. It’s also the sign of a person who is (look out, direct quote used in an ironic and mean-spirited manner!) “part of the problem and not part of any useful solution.”

Grow up.

Matthew: The Storm/Black Panther marriage is bad, and should be retconned out of exsistence. Not because of thier race, but because its…well…have you seen comments on Black Panther #19?

Well, I disagree on that count, partly because I’ve enjoyed the arc so far. I can see the POV where the complaints are coming from, but I don’t really agree with their interpretation.

That’s the beauty of comics, though. Everyone has different tastes. We can sometimes agree to civilly disagree and then talk about comics we all enjoy

In fact, everyone who isn’t reading Sam Noir: Samurai Detective out of Image should be. It’s great stuff, and very funny.

I do not agree with what you’re saying, or your interpretation of my post(s), but I will keep what you say in mind.

Peace.

I think the key point is the privileged fanboys in these comments trying to make out they’re the victims here are desperate and creepy.

I am boggling at the fact anyone can have so little perspective, let alone so little perspective with so many words.

David, if you’re still reading–

The phrase “it’s not all about you” is used frequently in discussions of racism, sexism, and other areas of oppression.

It’s not actually meant to be offensive. Instead, it’s generally meant to try to express the fact that, in these cases, people of color and/or women (or whoever else) are focusing on their own issues, and they would appreciate it if you could stop for a moment, and listen to what they’re saying, and participate in the discussion that’s going on. (Often, this is because that kind of discussion doesn’t tend to happen in most spaces, and they’d like to nurture it.)

It’s also very often useful to look at /why/ you’re feeling attacked and/or uncomfortable. Sometimes it’s just because you’re, well, being attacked, but sometimes, it’s because there are issues of race or gender dynamics that you haven’t fully addressed. (I often get this with race issues. I’m white/Caucasian, and I can’t tell you the number of times I’ve tried to dismiss my own unconscious biases and prejudices, and realized later what was going on.)

On the actual topic– Wizard is being more upfront about this than they usually are. I’m kind of surprised.

I hate how some guys automatically get so damn OFFENDED whenever girls complain about things that actually matter. Again, IT’S NOT ABOUT YOU. The fact that you get so defensive makes it look like you are trivializing the movement. I can’t tell you how many times some guy will hear some good point a femme comic fan makes, and then the guy she is speaking to automatically says, “WELL, BUT…” as if what she says isn’t as important as his ego, or his own biases, or his love of boobs, or whatever he’s defending that day.

As for the book, it’s not clean enough for me to spit upon.

Ever notice how almost every single guy in comic books is six foot tall without an ounce of fat on their body and perfectly toned muscles? And they run around in skin-tight outfits to show off this physique.

Funny how I’ve never heard complaints about unrealistic male physiques in comics.

THEN STAND UP AND BE HEARD, MAN.

Seriously though, there’s more variety in body shapes and sizes for male protagonists than there are for female protagonists in most mainstream comic publications. And consider how the subjects were approached – when drawing the men, the focus of the advice is on power – making them look strong. With women, the advice is about making them look sexy. The idea of sex appeal from the male characters is ignored – they’re meant to be who the *reader* is supposed to want to be. The women are treated more like what the reader is supposed to *want*.

I would like to see Batman drawn wearing high heels, and arching his back when bending over to pick up his batarang. I want to see Kyle Rayner drawn with full pouty lips and sultry cat-like eyes. Wait a minute! That’s HAWT!

David: Check. Sorry to make more assumptions about you. (And I completely missed the part about “22 year old black male” in your first comment. Good job, brain!)

I’m sure that you know the dance that is, “I am Tired of Educating People about {my issue},” and yet, also wanting to reach out and talk anyway. It’s a hard dance.

I guess these folks (who I know only by repuation) are in the thing where they’re so close to the situation that they’re unable to completely see out of it. (I’ve certainly been there. Recently, even.)

And my favorite term for the sort of direct discussion of each other’s issues surrounding Stuff is “dialogue”, but whatever works.

“While we are on subtext – there�s alot of hate being aimed generally towards the male in general in much of those comments.”

Not really.

There’s a lot of hate directed at the patriarchy – but that’s pretty much synonymous with “culture” and thus includes women as well as men, and so would be more accurrately described as “people.”

There’s definitely quite a bit of ire directed at the publishing companies, as well as certain artists – such as those who wrote the idiotic articles in question. And yes, fans who rush to the defense of these two groups certainly get singed too.

There’s pretty much none directed at men in general.

Is there a reason why you are confusing any or all of these groups with men as a group?

….

If you really want to have some art discussions – let’s talk about the fact that the men in the examples linked to above are never shown in even a traditional contrappasto pose, they are always as stiff as boards – but the minimum contortion for women is a bastardization of it where their hands are behind their backs. What does this say about the relative status of each gender – especially when both are meant to be warriors?

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