John Byrne - Sexist? You be the judge:
John Byrne may be well known as the writer and artist of many Marvel and DC series and characters, to say nothing of his being a ret-con machine (Marvel Two-In-One #50 may have been a precursor to what he really ended up doing in subsequent years as a ret-conner), but he’s also known for a lot of discrimination against women in whatever he’s worked on as a writer, even subliminally. Between his debut in comic books in the mid-1970s to the mid-1990s, there were quite a few books he wrote where sexism had a presence, even if you couldn’t always see it. To enjoy any of his works can often require big doses of salt… His run on West Coast Avengers in 1990 is surely one of the worst examples on his resume. Tigra starts becoming more cat than human, to say nothing of savage, and when restraining her, the USAgent smacks her on the face, not unlike how Hawkwoman was smacked by a villain in Action Comics. And Scarlet Witch is turned into a cartoon villainess, cutting her adorable red curls and going tomboy, oozing with embarrassingly bad stereotypical villainy, and, when paralyzing the Avengers at one point, she scratches Wonder Man across the chest.
Someone may have to explain to me how short haircuts and scratching a male character across the chest are discriminatory to women, I have to admit. And, while Byrne may be guilty of a great many crimes, is he really “known for a lot of discrimination against women in whatever he’s worked on as a writer”?
September 7th, 2006 at 1:41 pm
There’s a web page floating around somewhere that goes point by point over Byrne’s treatment of female heroes that’s pretty damning.
All I can say is the ugly scene of the baby punching its way out of Debbie the Duck’s belly in Star Brand #13, killing her… I… I don’t like that.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:42 pm
Hear hear, Graeme. John Byrne may be many things, but “sexist” ain’t one of them, at least in my experience (both as a friendly acquaintance and a reader).
September 7th, 2006 at 1:46 pm
…even subliminally…
…even if you couldn’t always see it…
I can’t take any charge of sexism, racism, ageism, bacon-appreicaitionism, or any other -ism seriously if the best examples are subliminal and one that can’t bee seen.
But that’s just me. I’m cwazy that way I guess.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:55 pm
Wow. I actually find myself wanting to defend Byrne…egads.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:56 pm
I specially loved this part:
“there were quite a few books he wrote where sexism had a presence, even if you couldn’t always see it.”
A case, so it seems, of “saving us from ourselves”.
September 7th, 2006 at 2:02 pm
Isn’t this just a case of dissing Byrne for the sake of dissing him? I mean I have problems with the guy but he’s still a great comic artist and legend in the industry. Plus I like short haircuts…
September 7th, 2006 at 2:14 pm
I’ve read quite a few Byrne-written books and his treatment of female characters generally seemed fairly progressive. In Next Men, a female Afican American character play a prominent role in the series (Toni Murcheson(?), and I think he’s one of the few writers to write She-Hulk well, first in Fantastic Four, then later in Sensational She-Hulk.
But then again, maybe I was duped by his subtle, sublimal sexism.
For the record, I’m not a Byrne apologist, as he tends to annoy me when he opines on any given issue. And I think the quality of his work has declined precipitously in the last decade or so.
September 7th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
The site left out the most damning evidence of Byrne’s sexism.
In Captain America #248 there’s a scene where the Red Skull blows up an apartment building in downtown Manhattan. It’s a high-rise, I estimate about 500 apartments. It really depends on how many two-bedrooms are in the building. Anyway – the explosion takes place at about two in the afternoon. Two in the afternoon! At a time when all the men are out at their jobs and the women are at home, chopping up onions for dinner or cleaning toilets. Barefoot and pregnant, no less, as vulnerable as they can get.
September 7th, 2006 at 2:16 pm
John Byrne is sexy? I mean, he’s not bad looking or anything….
September 7th, 2006 at 2:44 pm
Yes, rampant sexism is why people loved his run on She-Hulk. And of course, that’s why he took the job. Making a strong, female lead look good.
Wait, that’s not what sexism is? Oh, my bad.
September 7th, 2006 at 3:20 pm
blockquoteIn The Thing #3-4, during an adventure with the Inhumans, it was “revealed” that Lockjaw, Crystal’s faithful pet, was really another Inhuman, or humanoid, himself. Need I continue with how embarrassingly bad this was? Let me just say that Peter David later undid this in X-Factor, writing that it was a ventriloquistic joke pulled by two of the Inhumans themselves (not that even that was any better though).
Can someone explain to me how this is a “discriminatory” act?
Now Byrne may not be the best human being around and it’s easy to find things about the man to have issues with but Lockjaw? Is this discriminatory to St. Bernard dogs or all humans? I can’t tell.
September 7th, 2006 at 3:22 pm
Y’know, I think Byrne might hate red robots too. After all, his run on West Coast Avengers started with the Vison’s kidnapping, dismantling and eventual rebuilding as the White Vision…
Or maybe he just hates happy not exactly nuclear families…
September 7th, 2006 at 4:07 pm
This is the website Dan mentioned up top that examines John Byrne’s treatment of female characters:
http://www.heroplay.com/features/articles/display.php?id=27
September 7th, 2006 at 4:26 pm
Yeah, establishing Sue Richards as the single most powerful member of the Fantastic Four and updating her name from Invisible Girl to Invisible Woman sure was sexist. And he didn’t just give her a short haircut - at one point, he gave her a fe-mullet!
(Okay, that last one may be a legitimate offense against humanity, but you get my point.)
September 7th, 2006 at 4:30 pm
I can see some of those things mentioned on that website can maybe be construed as sexist, such as a female character being beaten up, but I think it would get pretty boring if female superheroes never got hurt. Also, I don’t remember any pregnant women getting tortured in Sensational She-Hulk.
September 7th, 2006 at 6:08 pm
Speaking in general — I’m not so quick to dismiss any analysis out of hand, simply because he wrote a good She-Hulk (and a damned good Queen Hippolyta), but I’ve never seen much wrong with Byrne on treatment of women other than stuff that falls under “general writing skill” and, of course, the institutionalized sexism that you see from just about ANY writer in our society, even feminist writers.
I wouldn’t give him a pass any more than I’d give the often-condemnd Frank Miller, Judd Winick or unjustly maligned Ron Marz but I wouldn’t give the often-lauded Joss Whedon, Greg Rucka, or Gail Simone a pass on using classic but symbolically problematic writing tropes with female characters. Examination does not equal condemnation.
Nopw, specifically speaking of the linked article — This analyst is going way overboard, and reaching for any reason to personally condemn the writer.
September 7th, 2006 at 6:25 pm
I’m having an FBR flashback right now and I kind of like it.
September 7th, 2006 at 7:05 pm
Let’s not forgetthe classic Byrne quote, “Hispanic and Latino women with blond hair look like hookers to me, no matter how clean or ‘cute’ they are.”
September 7th, 2006 at 8:32 pm
Ron, we’re talking about his four-color storytelling, not his moronic conduct on message boards.
September 7th, 2006 at 9:38 pm
I *really* don’t like John Byrne’s writing, OR his art, quite frankly.
BUT, I don’t think any of those examples are sexist. It’s a weak case argued poorly.
And women superheroes sometimes get hit, as do male ones. If they didn’t, it wouldn’t be realistic, (I know, superheroes are already unrealistic) and it would reak of cow-towing to political correctness.
September 8th, 2006 at 12:02 am
I don’t know if it’s sexist, but I do know that John Byrne, for awhile, seemed to only be able to draw women with short hair and they always seemed to look like Moe from The Three Stooges or a member of Flock of Seagulls. It was just weird. Weird I tell you!
September 8th, 2006 at 7:13 am
Short hair, being quicker to violence than usual (and this in a superhero comic), becoming a herald of Galactus–what, these are all bad things? I guess what I’m saying is, could the list itself be demonstrating more sexism than the work it references? I mean, wha??? Women aren’t all portrayed as delicate, be-pedestaled flowers, all the time?
September 8th, 2006 at 10:11 am
That ’scratching the chest’ thing, I believe that scene was meant to suggest that Scarlet Witch went down a bit further, and sexually assaulted Wonder Man in some way, while he was ‘helpless’. Umm, I don’t know whose point I’ve proved with that.
September 8th, 2006 at 12:55 pm
I can see some of those things mentioned on that website can maybe be construed as sexist, such as a female character being beaten up, but I think it would get pretty boring if female superheroes never got hurt. Also, I don’t remember any pregnant women getting tortured in Sensational She-Hulk.
I don’t think zan’s point (BTW, I’m talking about the
heroplay page, not the one Graeme spots) was that hurting heroines is sexist but that Bryne tends to depict heroines as beaten-down and helpless while showing their male counterparts as strong and triumphant.
IMO, it’s an aspect of the Women in Refrigerators thing.
September 8th, 2006 at 6:48 pm
I can think of nearly a dozen more examples beyond those mentioned in zan’s list on heroplay of comics by John Byrne in which women are humiliated or beaten down or killed, often shown as central dramatic points, while male characters don’t get nearly that kind of treatment. But how many concrete examples should someone need before being willing to admit there’s something going on here?
Please try to understand that this is not making any claims about Byrne in his personal life. This is a critique of his published work, and the fact that he thinks up these images and considers them appropriate and suitable to use in stories does say something about his creative judgement at the very least. Maybe his attitude is simply “ugly scenes of women being degraded make good comics” in which case it’s appropriate for a reader to stand up and say “no, it’s just ugly.”
September 9th, 2006 at 10:58 pm
Lyle, I agree that the heroplay page makes a much better argument,so much so that I now actually agree with it.However, the first page is just a joke, and I think the author would have been better served either just likning to the heroplay site or thinking of better examples (which I am sure there are plenty of).
September 13th, 2006 at 5:52 pm
I commented on the Original Site and read the rest of her content. I am actually on the fence about whether it’s some sort of Women in Refridgerators parody. It just seems too nonsensical, even for an overly sensitive person. She later wrote that the short haircut was sexist b/c it “showed a lack of respect for her hair.”